Friday, September 11, 2009

The Inquisition

Atheist ignorance, be it deliberate or God given, causes atheists to greatly distort God’s Word. Consider the case where atheists say that murder and atrocities like the Inquisition can be justified through the teachings of Jesus. Well, they don’t exactly blame it on the teachings of Jesus, do they? Actually, atheists are terrified of the New Testament. As Samuel Clemens once said, “It’s not the things in the Bible that I don’t understand that scare me. It’s the things in the Bible that I do understand that scare me.”

So dependent are atheists on the Old Testament Covenant to maintain their anti God stance, many of them behave as though the Bible only contains those Older Testaments to God’s reality. You see, atheists know that nowhere can a case be made for any type of inquisition or witch burning or crusade.

Rather than finding grounds for supporting murder, atheists, many of whom possess quite an extraordinary knowledge of what the Bible says, should, could and probably do know that Jesus took special pains to guard against someone taking His teaching out of context. Jesus taught specifically against the kind of thoughts and behaviours that could be used to instigate events like the Crusades and the Inquisition.

In Matthew 13: 24 - 30 we read - “God’s kingdom is like a farmer who planted good seed in his field. That night, while his hired men were asleep, his enemy sowed thistles all through the wheat and slipped away before dawn. When the first green shoots appeared and the grain began to form, the thistles showed up, too.

The farmhands came to the farmer and said, Master, that was clean seed you planted, wasn’t it? Where did these thistles come from?”

He answered, “Some enemy did this.”

“The farmhands asked, “Should we weed out the thistles?’

He said, “No, if you weed the thistles, you’ll pull up the wheat, too. Let them grow together until harvest time. Then I’ll instruct the harvesters to pull up the thistles and tie them in bundles for the fire, then gather the wheat and put it in the barn.”
===================

. That parable is specifically about NOT “pulling up” or killing those who are clearly not part of God’s kingdom.

. That parable is specifically about NOT “pulling up” or killing those who are antagonistic toward or openly trying to destroy the kingdom of God.

. That parable is specifically about NOT seeking out and then judging those who may or may not be part of the kingdom of God.

It is God who will deal with these people at the proper time. It is not our job and the Bible provides no justification for attempting to judge the fate of others based on our limited knowledge of God’s will.

29 comments:

salvage said...

That's a nice story but alas falls apart when you remember that your god is all powerful.

He could lift the thistles without harming the wheat, he's a god remember?

Your god let his followers in his name do great evil and rewarded them for their efforts.

The inquisitions were the logical extension of how your god punishes unbelievers. They thought they were helping the Jews and other heathens with the torture and if your god and his rules were true they'd be right.

After all how can anyone on Earth torture worse than what awaits us atheists in Hell?

Makarios said...

"He could lift the thistles without harming the wheat, he's a god remember?"

Yes He could Sal. However, because He loves you, He is showing patience. He is giving you and other atheists every last chance that they can get. No one will be left behind unless s/he demands to be left behind.

Don't you long to be loved Sal. Don't you long to be forgiven?

Calladus said...

Please, justify Numbers 31 for me.

Makarios said...

As I've stated over and over and over again, these nations were evil to the core. So evil in fact that sacrificing their childrn as live burned offerings and subjugating thousands of women to work as temple prostitutes was the accepted norm. As well, they were intent on wiping out the Israelites, a people through whom God was going to bring the means of salvation to the whole world.

Now, looking through 21st century eyes, can I understand or justify this, what many people call "genocide"? No, but it's not my job. God is God is God.

Bottom line? Don't mess with your Creator. He doesn't ask for your blessing or your approval. He doesn't need your permission nor does He seek it.

However He does layout the ground rules, so we need not live in ignorance of His expectations.

"He has showed you. O man, what is good And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God."

Your Creator came to earth to show us that He lives by His own rules and He suffered His own wrath so that you don't need to endure that.

The tension between the harshness of God and the love of God, both incomprehensible to us is something that we were placed on earth to figure out - I think.

salvage said...

>Yes He could Sal. However, because He loves you, He is showing patience.

Huh? No, I'm not being tortured by being slowly lowered into a fat of oil or being shut in an iron maiden until I accept Jesus as my personal savior.

Torture will happen after I die according to your beliefs.

In fact I'm not suffering at all, quite the opposite really. I want for nothing.... well okay, a bigger screen for my computer would be nice.

Clients that don't change their mind at the last minute leaving me with a weekend of work would be even nicer.

>He is giving you and other atheists every last chance that they can get.

No he's not. Your god's story is insane, if it all turns out to be true then it's your god's fault for not explaining himself in any sensible way.

>No one will be left behind unless s/he demands to be left behind.

No, they'll be "left behind"...

Wait, oh noes! You're not one of those are you! The ones that think your god is going to scoop up all the believers nakid and get them out of the way so he can destroy the Earth or give it to Satan for a few hundred years in one final punch-up? You do know that every generation of Christians insist that it's "end times" and times never end?

>Don't you long to be loved Sal.

Sure and since I'm such a charming dude and cut in the muscle department I am.

>Don't you long to be forgiven?

In fact I have a mental list of people I've wronged in one way or another and I actively work to make good on past bad behavior. This ranged from an ex-girlfriend who deserved better (she's married now with kids, very happy, we're facebook buds) to a roommate whose album I left on the turntable in the sun warping it (took me a decade and eBay to make good on that one).

I need forgiveness from those I've wronged not from some crazy sky god who makes up rules and breaks them as he goes along.

Calladus said...

First, your explanation of Numbers 31 is pure bullshit. Either there are innocent children, or there are not. If God exists, and if he approves of this killing, then he is an immoral, evil monster not worthy of worship.

Your apology in your God's name shows that you are complicit. There is no difference between you and what you think your God does. You are both immoral and evil.

Dude, you don't even try to do the apologist tap-dance for Numbers 31. If you believed your God wanted you to fly a jet into a skyscraper, you'd be the first one holding up your hand to do so.

It's scum like you that give a b name to all religion, and you're a shining example of how a warped mind can use religion to accomplish fanatic aims.

And you have the overwhelming arrogance to look down your nose at those people who can live a just and moral life without religion?

You're less than an idiot. You're irrelevant.

Makarios said...

"Torture will happen after I die according to your beliefs."

No, according to your decision. But it doesn't have to be that way Sal. Don't mistake God's blessing you and giving you a good life with Him not caring about rejecting His offer of salvation.
=============

"Your apology in your God's name"

Hmm, sorry. I actually put some effort into not sounding as though I was apologising for Him. He can hold His own quite nicely.
==========
You are both immoral and evil.”

Yes, well, I know that I am but I think you misunderstand your Creator.
============

"You're less than an idiot. You're irrelevant."

So, are you happy with my response or not?

Rabhimself said...

Calladus said of Makarios:

"Dude, you don't even try to do the apologist tap-dance for Numbers 31. If you believed your God wanted you to fly a jet into a skyscraper, you'd be the first one holding up your hand to do so."

Spot on.

You just believe it all so fervently that you really would.

If you believed in the quran as litrerally as you do the bible you'd prob be dead already.

For once i'm glad you're only a hardcore christian.

Makarios said...

"For once i'm glad you're only a hardcore christian."

I’m glad that an atheist shows a slight ability to discern the difference between Islam and Christianity.

Makarios said...

Oh, and Rab, I asked you question on "Why Won't You Believe." I'd be interested in your answer.

JD Curtis said...

Whoa! Calladus! Ever consider decaf?

Either there are innocent children, or there are not. If God exists, and if he approves of this killing, then he is an immoral, evil monster not worthy of worship.

I know that youre not doing anything as breathtakingly stupid as viewing history through the eyes of someone who is aware of the Geneva Convention, Amnesty International and has absolutely no clue how evil the people destroyed actually were. If the Midianites were to be destroyed as a people, would you feel any better if instead of the Isrealites that an earthquake was used?

There is no difference between you and what you think your God does.

Mak? I was unaware that you called for the snuffing out of a group of people and commanded that it be done. When did this happen? I mean, I was out of town for a week and all but jeez, the things you miss when you lay low for awhile.

If you believed your God wanted you to fly a jet into a skyscraper, you'd be the first one holding up your hand to do so.

There is a bit of a difference between those who flew planes into buildings and those who proclaimed the risen Lord. Those who flew those planes hoped that what they did was right. Those who suffered martyrdom proclaiming the resurrection of Jesus Christ were eyewitnesses to the claimed event and as such would not lie to avoid a horrific death.

It's scum like you that give a b name to all religion, and you're a shining example of how a warped mind can use religion to accomplish fanatic aims.

How many Anabaptists have ever flown planes into buildings? Are Presbyterians strapping bombs on themselves and killing innocent bystanders? How are the recruitment efforts of the Al-Methodists Martyrs Brigade coming along? Again, we see the monumentally stupid folly of the atheist lumping all religions in together.

Makarios said...

"When did this happen?"

You weren’t supposed to find out. This is so embarrassing. And right after I promised that I’d try to be nicer. Oh well, it made my god happy and that’s all that counts.

Rabhimself said...

Of course theres differences mak, but the fundamental principle is the same. Christians and muslims both believe in an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent being responsible for creating everything as we know it. Both of you believe you have to worship this creator or go to hell.

I still think Calladus' point is valid.

If you believed the quran as literally as you do the bible, i think you would very likely volunteer for the atrocities he described.

Remember, there are more than 100 verses in the quran advocating the use of violence to spread Islam.

It is purely a small proportion of moderation (the same moderation that holds christians back from doing literally what the bible says) that means the minority of the muslim world carry out such acts.

I'd bet a substantial sum that if you were muslim, given your fervent belief, you would be a dangerous individual.

salvage said...

Almost every major world religion at one point was spread by the sword. Islam is the most explicit about it but that's understandable, that's what the religions that preceded it did and it worked so naturally they adopted the same methods.

Fortunately for Christianity the Arabs sucked at fighting away from deserts; Allah's army could hit and run back into the sand where no European or Persian army could survive that environment long enough to give chase.

Makarios said...

You know, God sometimes tells me to kill people and lately I've been hearing rab, rab, rab. I just don't know what that means?

Ya, Rab, I'm a very scary person. You better go into hiding.

Makarios said...

"Almost every major world religion at one point was spread by the sword."

Every major belief secular or religious has been spread by the sword. That's what humans do.

salvage said...

>Every major belief secular or religious has been spread by the sword. That's what humans do.

Ah yes, when the forces of The Enlightenment swept across Europe burning theists and flat-Earthers at the stake...

No... wait.. that didn't happen.

Oh but when the Darwinian Rebels overthrew the British monarchy cutting their heads off...

Huh. No. That doesn't sound right...

Well the Atheist invasion of South America and genocide of the indigenous peoples certainly...

Oh right, that never happened.

Or that time the Pope was arrested and threatened with death for saying the sun revolves around the Earth?

In fact there is only one case of a secular movement being incredibly violent to religion and that would be during a period in the French Revolution when they went as far as renaming the months of the year because many of them are named after gods.

They didn't last long, their leadership where killed soon after everyone realized just how freakin' nuts they were.

So no, there is no comparison between the thousands of years of religion being forced upon conquered people and secular reasoning that takes root not because it'd adherents would cut your head off if you didn't go along but because it's the truth and thereby actually produces results.

Makarios said...

Google "Wars of the 20th century."

Rabhimself said...

Say what you will mak, but those 'martyrs' believe in their cause just as much as you do yours.

If you honestly thought god was telling you to do something, even if it wee to kill, you'd do it.

Don't try and kid us all on, and yourself.

Makarios said...

Stop it Rab. You're being silly.

Makarios said...

http://makarios-makarios.blogspot.com/2009/08/god-of-old-and-new.html

Does it seem likely that the Being described here would ask me to do that? And don't return with some reference to God wiping out the Midianites. Those were very specific wars for very specific reasons that ARE NOT transferable to our day, our situation, our context.

salvage said...

So. All the wars of the 20th century had nothing to do with religion?

How sure are you about that?

JD Curtis said...

when the forces of The Enlightenment swept across Europe burning theists and flat-Earthers at the stake...

No... wait.. that didn't happen.


How did that whole Cult of Reason thing work out for you all?

that time the Pope was arrested and threatened with death for saying the sun revolves around the Earth?

What? Galileo? I get gigged by atheists if I cite a source from the 1990's. Could you keep it at least a little more current than 350 years ago?

Makarios said...

"All the wars of the 20th century had nothing to do with religion?"

Did I say that? Or does the list suggest that? Perhaps the makers of the list were Christian Fundamentalists. Everyone who disagrees with you must be - right?

salvage said...

Could you keep it at least a little more current than 350 years ago?

Sure. Here's a woman who the Pope had thrown in jail for saying mean things about him:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CsFxVPDjKs


(it's last week's episode of "Bullshit!" there are naughty words so NSFW)

>Did I say that?

That was the implication.

>Or does the list suggest that?

Nope. One of the fun things about war is that the current one's cause can always be traced by to the last war. WWI beget WWII beget The Middle East wars, The Korean War and the Vietnam and so on.

And WWI can be traced alllllll the way back to the Wars of Religion in the very early Modern Era.

>Perhaps the makers of the list were Christian Fundamentalists.

I dunno, I didn't both Googling it.

>Everyone who disagrees with you must be - right?

Nope. Everyone who disagrees with me must be someone who disagrees with me, their religion notwithstanding.

Unless they think that their god exists than they're totally wrong.

JD Curtis said...

Nope. One of the fun things about war is that the current one's cause can always be traced by to the last war. WWI beget WWII beget The Middle East wars, The Korean War and the Vietnam and so on.

And WWI can be traced alllllll the way back to the Wars of Religion in the very early Modern Era.


Wow! I never realized that the French and Indian War, The American Revolution, The War of 1812, The Blackhawk War, The Mexican-American War, The American Civil War, The Spanish-American War, WWI, WWII, Korea and Vietnam were all fought over religion. Have you applied for a grant yet?

salvage said...

Can you read JD? I said "traced back" but let's check those wars out see what we can find:

>French and Indian War,

Was the European powers fighting over North America, land they had stolen from the Natives.

Not very Christian is it? Well yes it is, you see the Natives didn't know Christ and as such they were damned to Hell unless the noble Whites from Europe converted them and the only way to convert is first you have to conquer.

The American Revolution

Was a revolt against your god, one of the many things I love about it. See you know about the divine right of kings? Doesn't matter if you're a Catholic or Protestant, the Pope, Calvin and Luther were all fans of it. Basically it says that the king is chosen by god and that disobeying the king was like disobeying god. One of the reason why the Loyalists didn't join in was they were worried they were rebelling against god.

>The War of 1812

A continuation of the American Revolution, the Brits taking one last sad whack at it.

The Blackhawk War

More our God says this Land is our Land!

>The Mexican-American War, The Spanish-American War

Have yet to study those.

>The American Civil War

God says slavery is good! God says slavery is bad. It's in the Bible!

While not really about religion religion certainly fed it.

>WWI

WWI can be traced back to the Religious Wars of the Early Modern Era. But here's a fun fact, both sides insisted that their god was on their side so much so that at one point British soldiers were order to WALK across nomansland because the "German machine gun was highly overrated" and god of course would be looking out for the Tommies.

>WWII

Yeah, no religion in that war! Nothing to do with anyone's beliefs at all!

Oh... except the Jews and the war on their lives but that doesn't count right?

And it's cute that you limit is to just the last 100 years, shall we go for 2,000 years and see what the score is then? Shall we look at the Middle East? Indian and Pakistan? Northern Ireland? The Balkans?

Now what's fun here is no comment on the link I provided showing the Pope throwing someone in jail in the last oh year? What do you think of that JD? Or are you one of those theists who literally block out anything that disturbs their delusions? Say are you Catholic? I find their reactions to be the most hysterical.

Makarios said...

Only a total bigot could interpret these events the way you do.

salvage said...

>Only a total bigot could interpret these events the way you do.

That may be the stupidest thing you have ever said to me here.

But I will indulge, please what is my bigotry and what is wrong with my interpretation?