Wednesday, September 2, 2009

Atheists detest mercy being given to those who haven’t worked for it and who like all of us, don’t deserve it.

18 comments:

salvage said...

Can you please provide an example of this?

Makarios said...

Are you telling us that you can't think of one person who doesn't derserve mercy and forgiveness?

salvage said...

Sure there are, loads as a matter of fact.

But that has nothing to do with me being an atheist anymore than my feelings about universal health-care, the Iraq invasion or the rumor that Megan Fox is going to be Catwoman in the next Batman movie do.

As show by the fact that some Christians are against the death penalty and others rabid fans of it one's beliefs do not necessary have an impact on all or any of their specific beliefs.

Now you can sit there and say you think that everyone deserves forgivness but your god certainly doesn't agree. In fact he built and entire dimension dedicated to punishing evil for ever and ever.

Oh and anyone who doesn't believe that Jesus is their savior.

Isn't that rather wasteful and sadistic of your god? Making rules that guarantee the majority of human souls end up in the pit gnashing their teeth? For instance millions of Chinese who are good a decent people but never exposed to Christianity will be condemned for the crime of being born in the wrong time place and culture?

Makarios said...

“Now you can sit there and say you think that everyone deserves forgivness but your god certainly doesn't agree.”

Who decides how much sin is acceptable? You? Me? Hitler? As you pointed out, according to your Creator and mine, “All have sinned and fall short of His standards.” No one is “good” enough. In reality, the issue is NOT how much sin. The issue is the presence of sin - period! I’ve used this example before. How many of the chef’s pubic hairs would you need to find in your meal at the restaurant before you’d send back the food?

Seems like a silly question doesn’t it? The answer is obvious. Even one pubic hair is too much. Whenever we find filth where we expect to find cleanliness, we’re repulsed. It’s the same with a perfectly Holy God. Even the best person in the world is unfit to be in the presence of a perfectly Holy Creator God. So what are we to do?

Now, here’s the problem. When it comes to mercy, it’s either for everyone, or for no one. Do you want an offer of mercy? Then Hitler gets an offer of mercy as well. “But that’s not fair,” you cry. “Hitler doesn’t deserve mercy.” Right? That’s what you think?

Well, in God’s system, none of us deserve mercy. Not any more. In the beginning He gave us paradise and we rejected it. Sin entered the world and now everything is heading for decay, death and destruction. So this time around, paradise is only going to be for those who show that they want it - on God’s terms. What are those terms?
1) Everyone gets the offer of mercy - Hitler included. “But,” you say, “that’s not justice.”
2) The last thing that you, as an atheist want is justice. That’s because the same principle applies. If one person gets justice then everyone gets justice. PROBLEM! If everyone gets justice then no one would escape hell because no one is worthy of paradise based on merit - one pubic hair is just as disgusting as five. “But I thought God was supposed to be a God of love?”
Yep, that’s right. That’s why He’s made a system whereby those who desire mercy will receive mercy.
3) The offer of mercy, is for everyone. Jesus died for you just as He died for Hitler, just as He died for me.
4) Jesus made forgiveness, mercy and grace possible for every person in the whole world, you included. “But some people don’t deserve mercy and forgiveness.” In fact, according to salvage there’s "loads" of them.
You're right again. In fact none of us deserve mercy, grace and forgiveness but God makes those things available anyway. In that sense, grace isn’t fair. God is willing to give us what we don’t deserve. However, it’s His creation and He can do whatever He wants with it. See Matthew 20: 1-16So what’s the catch?
5) There isn’t one. Everybody gets what they want. If you ask for mercy, mercy is what you get. If you don’t want mercy (what kind of a fool would that be?) you don’t need to put up with it. God will not force you to accept something that you don’t want.
“But,” I can hear Glen protesting, “then I have to burn in hell forever.”
Well, no one has to burn in hell. Avoiding hell is as easy as asking for mercy and forgiveness.

Besides, there are lots of things in life where you only have two choices, one is good and one is harsh. That’s life. As a parent with seven children I’m familiar with those who don’t want either option. You do it or you don't and you live with the consequences.
Nevertheless, two options is the norm, not the exception.
I’m quite aware how you atheists complain about hell. I’m also aware that day in and day out atheists make the choice to go to hell so I have to ask myself, “How bad can they really think that it is? Not bad enough to say, “No,” obviously.

Glen20 said...

However, it’s His creation and He can do whatever He wants with it. See Matthew 20: 1-16So what’s the catch?
5) There isn’t one. Everybody gets what they want. If you ask for mercy, mercy is what you get. If you don’t want mercy (what kind of a fool would that be?) you don’t need to put up with it. God will not force you to accept something that you don’t want.
“But,” I can hear Glen protesting, “then I have to burn in hell forever.”
Well, no one has to burn in hell. Avoiding hell is as easy as asking for mercy and forgiveness
.

Then I'll ask for mercy in Hell then. At least I'll have proof it is real then.
(Not that I believe in gods and hells, just arguing from your worldview)

salvage said...

>Who decides how much sin is acceptable?

Um well if you mean illegal stuff that’d be the Criminal Code of Canada for me and from what I can tell none of it is “acceptable”.

>the best person in the world is unfit to be in the presence of a perfectly Holy Creator God. So what are we to do?

The one thing that amazes me about religion is just how insane some of it is and yet people still believe in it. Your god made everything right? Your god knows exactly what is going to happen till infinite right? So if he made me and I’m a sinner unworthy to hang out with him (which by the way I have zero interest in doing as he’s as mad as a hatter that one) then that’s how he made me so shame on him and his piss poor workmanship.

>“Hitler doesn’t deserve mercy.”

Right? That’s what you think?
No, what I think is Hitler is dead and that it’s a shame that the Russians didn’t get their claws on him live. They would have gone Leningrad on his ass. Mercy is for the living, the dead have no need for it.

>Well, in God’s system, none of us deserve mercy. Not any more. In the beginning He gave us paradise and we rejected it.

Whoa there Sparky, are you taking about Adam and Eve and all that business with fruit and the devil in a snake suit? The one where god goes “Now don’t eat this magic fruit that I’m going to leave right here on this tree or else bad things will happen!”
And then they ate the fruit and your god got all angry but if you want to talk parables that don’t involve pubic hair here’s one for you. You have two children and a piece of poison, you don’t want the kids to eat the poison so do you:

A) Put it in a chocolate bar in the fridge and then go and tell the kids not to eat the candy in the fridge

B) Put on a high shelf that the kids can’t reach in a childproof bottle with a big skull and crossbones logo that you later on show the kids and tell them to never touch anything with this picture on it because it could hurt them real bad.

C) Realize that poison in a household is too much a risk and so you take it to a waste disposal site and never bring poison into the house again.

What would a sensible person do? C I’d say, maybe B but your god went with Plan A and look how well it’s worked out! Your god went and made this “sin” stuff and now he blames us.

What a baby.

> Sin entered the world and now everything is heading for decay, death and destruction.

Are you a goth? I

t’s funny, just the other day I was sitting here thinking how lucky I was to live in this time and age because not matter the time of year I can have fresh fruit. Snowy day I’m eating like it’s Hawaii outside.

Funny how differently we see our world huh?

>So this time around, paradise is only going to be for those who show that they want it - on God’s terms.

And once again a beauty of an example of the theist double-think; my god the most powerful thing in the universe but he can’t make us be like he wants us to be! Doesn’t that dichotomy strike you as peculiar? What were the terms last time? I don’t remember entering any sort of negotiation with a supreme being.

I find the idea of my destiny being determined by Adam and Eve being a being victims of a clear case of entrapment a wee bit unfair.

>Everyone gets the offer of mercy - Hitler included. “But,” you say, “that’s not justice.”

Er… no I didn’t say that and like I said Hitler is beyond justice now, he pretty much got away with it but that happens more often than not. Life! What are you going to do?

salvage said...

> The last thing that you, as an atheist want is justice.

Um… no again.

>That’s because the same principle applies.

I don’t think you’re making the sense you think you’re making.

> If one person gets justice then everyone gets justice. PROBLEM!

No, that would be pretty good actually. If your god did that, dispensed even, fair and immediate justice here on Earth and in real time I’d be praising him with the rest of the planet every Sunday.

But alas, your god sits idly by while a young girl spends 18 years being raped.

>If everyone gets justice then no one would escape hell because no one is worthy of paradise based on merit - one pubic hair is just as disgusting as five.

Yes, so maybe your god shouldn’t have made pubes huh? See that’s the bit you’re ignoring, you claim that your god spent a week building everything that is so that means he built sin so he is once again blaming us for his cock-up.

> “But I thought God was supposed to be a God of love?”

Oh no, no, no, no sir, that is something your god is most certainly not. Have you read the Old Testament? Your god is a nutter For example he wanted his followers to kill homosexuals but made no comment on child raping.

Guess he saw the Catholic Church coming.

And what’s up with the slavery? Your god seemed to approve of it back in the day.

No, your god ain’t loving, you’ll never hear me make that accusation.

>3) The offer of mercy, is for everyone. Jesus died for you just as He died for Hitler, just as He died for me.

Whoa, whoa, whoa again, didn’t you just say in another thread that the tomb was empty? Jesus didn’t die, I know death and how it works when someone dies they don’t get to come back, they’re gone baby gone. He napped for three days and then went off to Heaven after one day of pain.
Pain that the Romans dispensed on everyone back then, they loved nailing people to things, a trick they picked up from the Carthaginians and that was one of their milder forms of execution, you wouldn’t believe the stuff they did when they really didn’t like you.

There are millions of people who suffered longer far more painful deaths than being slapped about by a mob and nailed to some wood.

salvage said...

>4) Jesus made forgiveness, mercy and grace possible for every person in the whole world, you included.

Say, why didn’t your god do that right from day one? Or like right after the apple business? Why did he wait so long for this Jesus deal if it was such a great plan?

>“But some people don’t deserve mercy and forgiveness.” In fact, according to salvage there’s "loads" of them. You're right again.

Indeed, if only it would penetrate.

> In fact none of us deserve mercy, grace and forgiveness but God makes those things available anyway.

Right.

After we’re dead.

Only if we’ve praised him with the correct rituals and observances.

If not, we’re tortured for eternity.

Makes perfect sense.

>In that sense, grace isn’t fair. God is willing to give us what we don’t deserve. However, it’s His creation and He can do whatever He wants with it.

No, no he can’t. He has to threaten us to get our love. He says he hates sin but he made a universe stuffed with it.
Actually the universe is stuffed with hydrogen and black holes… why did your god do that by the way? Why did he make a 14.5 billion light years big universe that seems to be more interesting in killing life than supporting it?

>Well, no one has to burn in hell. Avoiding hell is as easy as asking for mercy and forgiveness.

While I’ve certainly done some unkind things I don’t think I actually am a candidate to beg mercy and forgiveness for my wrongs. Venial is a pretty good description of them.

That applies to most people by the way.

At any rate Hell doesn’t make much more sense than Heaven because once again an omnipotent god would already know who is going where and why and he could stop it at anytime but chooses not to and the only reasons as to why would be:

a) He likes sending people to Hell

b) He’s not as powerful as you say he is

c) He doesn’t exist

I’m a fan of c myself, what do you think the answer is then?

Makarios said...

“the most powerful thing in the universe but he can’t make us be like he wants us to be!”

You want Him to MAKE you be a certain way? I don’t believe that.

salvage said...

>You want Him to MAKE you be a certain way? I don’t believe that.


If he were real (I find it so bizarre that your capitalize He, does your god care about how you spell his name? If so why?) it wouldn't matter what I wanted everything would be exactly as he wanted them to be.

See the Pagans had some sense when they crafted their gods. They gave them mortal foibles, they could be fooled, they could make mistakes, they didn't know everything, made their actions and reactions more believable.

Your god? Quite literally too good to be true.

PersonalFailure said...

Classic Makarios: "I'll say stuff and that makes it true."

All righty then. Since I give mercy in my own life to people I don't really think deserve it, and I am an atheist, your entire post is, ipso facto, a lie.

JD Curtis said...

Hell doesn’t make much more sense than Heaven because once again an omnipotent god would already know who is going where and why and he could stop it at anytime but chooses not to and the only reasons as to why would be:

a) He likes sending people to Hell


Breathtakingly stupid Atheism 101 banter thrown out by people who purposefully reject God and try to define opposing viewpoints to fit their worldview. The same God that "likes sending people to Hell" liked it so much that He had his Son offer up the perfect sacrifice in order to provide a way out of eternal damnation.

Makarios said...

Glen -

"I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked. I long for them to turn from their sin and live."

If God enjoyed sending people to hell, He wouldn't have done everything possible to ensure that anyone who want can go to heaven. Like I've said before, it takes a determined effort to reject salvation in order to get into hell. In fact you have to step over the dead body of Jesus to enter hell.

Glen20 said...

Glen -

"I take no pleasure in the death o
f...

You are repling to Salvage, the only thing I've said in this thread is:

Makarios said:Everybody gets what they want. If you ask for mercy, mercy is what you get. If you don’t want mercy (what kind of a fool would that be?) you don’t need to put up with it. God will not force you to accept something that you don’t want.
“But,” I can hear Glen protesting, “then I have to burn in hell forever.”
Well, no one has to burn in hell. Avoiding hell is as easy as asking for mercy and forgiveness
.

Then I'll ask for mercy in Hell then. At least I'll have proof it is real then.
(Not that I believe in gods and hells, just arguing from your worldview)

Makarios said...

Glen - from my world-view hell isn't even in the picture. I'm a citizen of heaven. That's as sure as tomorrow's rising sun. I never think of hell in relation to my life. I am concerned about it in relation to yours. How can I not?

Rabhimself said...

"I'm a citizen of heaven"

Unless of course, hypothetically, there is a god, but he in fact isn't the christian one, and is pretty pissed off you've been worshiping a false idol - just like yours would be. Then, if he has some sort of hell in place, you'll be joining the rest of us.

Although perhaps atheists and agnostics woul be able to reason with him, at least they can explain why they didn't believe. Better than believing in the wrong god with no evidence.

Makarios said...

Ya, good luck with that.

Rabhimself said...

Hey, remember what it was like before you were born? No?

That's what i imagine being dead to be like, i'm just putting forward an equally plausible scenario towards you with relation to your belief of heaven and hell.