Friday, October 2, 2009

What Am I Doing Here?

Have you ever REALLY asked yourself that question?

“If God doesn’t exist, why does anything exist?”

Reality is:
1) Either no one and no thing brought everything into existence out of nothing, or

2) Someone or Some thing that existed outside of the universe, and is transcendent to the universe brought everything into existence out of nothing.

Those are the only choices that we have, but like my brain damaged seven year old, atheists act as though there must, there must, there must be a third choice. Here’s an example.

My wife was a parent supervisor this morning for the grade two class trip. Walker, who was going on the trip, didn’t want to ride his bike to school as he usually does. He wanted to ride to school in the car with my wife. However he was afraid she wouldn’t get there on time.
“So go on your bike and meet her there,” I said.
“No I don’t want to ride my bike today.”
“So go with Wendy in the car.”
“No, she won’t get there on time.”
“Walker, she’ll be on time.”
“No, she’ll be late.”
“Then go on your bike. You can leave right now.”
“No I don’t want to go on my bike.”
“So go in the car.”
“No, she’ll be late. I just know it.”
“Walker you have two choices, go on your bike or go in the car.”
“No, I don’t want to do those choices.”

That’s the life of an atheist.
Option One
Either matter is eternal (impossible) or

Option Two
A supernatural and transcendent cause is eternal.

Atheist - “No, I don’t want those choices.”

Well, maybe not, but either Creator God caused everything to exist or nothing caused everything to exist.

Honestly now, if you didn’t have an atheist world-view to protect, which one makes the most sense to you? Which is the most reasonable view? A Supernatural Cause or Nothing as cause?

As an atheist, do you have enough faith to believe that Nothing can cause everything?

Because that’s what it takes you know - to be an atheist. It takes faith - in the truest meaning of the word. For there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that something can come into being without a cause. And there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever to believe that Nothing can do ANYTHING much less “create” a universe.

Richard Dawkins has enough faith to believe that Nothing evolved to the point that everything came from nothing by nothing. Do you have enough faith to believe that?

It’s important to note that while "Something outside of nature created the universe" coheres with what Christianity teaches, it does not ARISE FROM what Christianity teaches. Rather, the conclusion that the Cause of the universe had to be external to and transcendent to the universe is based on logic, reason and science.

“For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries.
Robert Jastrow, “God and the Astronomers,” (New York: Norton)116.

22 comments:

Gorth Satana said...

Like your brain damaged seven year old, you seem to think that if you believe hard enough it will make it true.

Reality is there IS more than your two choices.

Perhaps our universe was a quantum event in a larger universe that always was. (BGV theorem)

It could have been produced spontaneously by processes of a type that are now beginning to be understood in physics.

And so on.

What proof do you have that your god made the universe?
Genesis 1:1
"In the beginning YHWH created the sky and the ground. "
Genesis 1:2
"And the earth was formless, and empty; and darkness was upon its face (the earth). And the YHWH moved upon the waters."

Wow, compelling!

Rabhimself said...

"Those are the only choices that we have, but like my brain damaged seven year old, atheists act as though there must, there must, there must be a third choice."

What a way to talk about your child; using them as some sort of comparitive standard to illustrate how stupid you think atheists are.

Sickening.

Nick Covington said...

/That’s the life of an atheist. /

I apologize for not fitting into your pre-determined categories.

What you're failing to take into account is the fallacy of special pleading when considering your beliefs about the origins of the universe.

If your argument is to say that all of existence must have a transcendent, supernatural cause. Then your un-caused intelligence, if you agree that it exists, fails immediately based on your own criteria of causation.


So which makes more sense?

A) Answering a question with a question (the un-caused cause) and

or

B) Saying, as I would, that I'm not certain as to the origins of the universe, but I like to think that science has a pretty good idea and, given the evidence, it is un-parsimonious to posit an even more complex, supernatural creator where none is necessary.

I tried to put that is as absolute of terms as I could, since that tends to be the only sort of argument you use and understand on this website.

Makarios said...

Perhaps our universe was a quantum event in a larger universe that always was.

A quantum event?? Quantum events take place in a vacuum Gorth. A vacuum is not nothing Gorh and a vacuum did not exist prior to BB.

Can't you get that Gorth? An energy fluctuation, that is sparked by a scientist in a lab is in no way even close to the NOTHING that existed prior to BB.

Two options Gorth. That's all you've got. Two options.

"What a way to talk about your child; using them as some sort of comparitive standard to illustrate how stupid you think atheists are."

There's nothing wrong with organic bain damage. He knows that he can't learn like other kids. There is however, something wrong with being willfully stupid, as is the case with atheists.

Makarios said...

Nick: You don't understand the issue. It is NOT "all of existence" needs a cause. It's every that BEGINS to exist needs a cause. An eternal being does not need a cause. Can you see the difference?

Nick Covington said...

/It's every that BEGINS to exist needs a cause. An eternal being does not need a cause./

I just don't think that anything can truly be out of the cycle of cause and effect.

If this god has thoughts, such as the inspiration to create a universe, these thoughts would need to be formed at some point in time and require a cause.

Being eternal doesn't solve any problems, and in my opinion, being eternal is the equivalent of being nothing, since literally nothing could occur before the creation of space or time.

Nick Covington said...

Not to mention that if we aren't even operating in an evidence-based belief system we can say anything without pesky facts getting in the way.

rationalbeauty said...

I enjoy reading your judgement & personal opinion on Atheists. They tickle me. Especially coming from a Christian. Someone who, is supposed to be excepting of everyone, & would understand that the only person who is allowed to pass judgement is your God.

May I place judgement upon you, as you have so humbly placed among people such as myself..
You are not a very good ambassador of your religion.

Makarios said...

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with these "people." What they believe is absurd, irrational and incoherent.

Hugo said...

"I'm not saying there's anything wrong with these "people." What they believe is absurd, irrational and incoherent."

The problem is that you don't know what "these people" believe... and "these people" all have different sets of beliefs anyway...

Now that I answered your question on the other post, are you going to answer mine?

His Lordship said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Hugo said...

MAKARIOS:
...every that BEGINS to exist needs a cause. An eternal being does not need a cause...

Can you prove the existence of an eternal/infinite being?

I would say as "His Lordship" mentioned, I don't believe, in the literal sense, in scientific theories like the Big Ban because it implies infinity. I cannot believe in infinity because it's a concept, it's in our mind only, not in actual reality.

Without concepts nothing would make sense, but it does not mean that concepts necessarily point to actual existing things.

Do you know what the square root of -1 is Makarios?

Hugo said...

Side note, I guess we can drop the discussion on the other post...

Makarios said...

Hugo: The problem is that you don't know what "these people" believe... and "these people" all have different sets of beliefs anyway...

You guys are something else. I thought you said that all atheists share one belief and one belief only, God does not exist. Now you're telling me that they all have different sets of beliefs?

Anyhow, the belief that God doesn't exist is absurd, irrational and incoherent.

Am I going to answer your question? I don't recall you asking a question.

HL: There are a lot more than those two choices. Jainism for example teaches that the Universe has never been created, and will never cease to exist, and time is cyclical. That's a valid third choice."

That's only a valid choice if you choose to ignore what science knows regarding matter. Surprisingly, a very high percentage of athetists do exactly that - ignore the very scientific process they claim to worship out the other side of their mouths.

Hugo: "Can you prove the existence of an eternal/infinite being?"

Of course not.

Hugo said...

LET'S RECAP:

HUGO:
Do you embrace the ideology of JD who stated that YEC, Young Earth Creationists, must not be rejected right away? i.e. Do you agree that people who think the Earth is 6,000 years old deserve to be listened to?

MAKARIOS:
I'll answer your quesion if you answer mine.
How did light from stars 78 billion light years away get to earth in only 13 billion years?

HUGO:
...the object that emitted light 13 billion years ago moved away from us during all these years...

HUGO:
Now that I answered your question on the other post, are you going to answer mine?

MAKARIOS:
I don't recall you asking a question.

EPIC!!
I know that following many different posts can be confusing sometimes, but that took place in what? 48 hours? lol

Hugo said...

MAKARIOS:
I thought you said that all atheists share one belief and one belief only, God does not exist. Now you're telling me that they all have different sets of beliefs?

Yes, exactly, ALL Atheists share ONE thing: non-belief in a god or gods. So, yes, obviously, they all have different sets of beliefs as no one bases beliefs on non-beliefs. I know you don't agree and think that Atheists pre-suppose all sorts of things because they don't believe in your imaginary friend, but that's your own perception...

MAKARIOS:
Anyhow, the belief that God doesn't exist is absurd, irrational and incoherent.

Atheists do not necessarily believe that God doesn't exist. They don't believe God exists. It's not the same thing. I know that the common usage points to believing in the non-existence of god, as it's just more practical to say this, but if you want to call it absurd, irrational and incoherent, you need to precise what you are addressing.

rational-beauty said...

As I said, you're really not a good ambassador of your religion.

& It's people like you who have created Atheists like me. Up Jesus's ass so far, it becomes annoying.

rational-beauty said...

You guys are something else. I thought you said that all atheists share one belief and one belief only, God does not exist. Now you're telling me that they all have different sets of beliefs?


In regards to this, because this really bugs me.

Yeah, we do all share a common belief, we don't believe in a higher or supernatural power. However, our beliefs differ when asked how we think the universe came to be. Reason for that is, we actually research & come up with what we think is the best, rational, belief, versus, being birthed into a religion & brainwashed into believing it's the only way to live.

Now, if we're wrong for creating a variety of religious-knowledge, so be it. But, myself, I think that would be the most rational thing to do. Consider all other options before making a final decision. We just so happen to not believe in a God.

I think Stephen Roberts said it best:
“I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours”

Makarios said...

Actually, if you understood why I accept all other religions, you'd understand why I reject your atheism.

Gorth Satana said...

"Actually, if you understood why I accept all other religions,"

You "accept" all other religions?
What does that mean?

Makarios said...

While only one religion is based on rational and historical facts the rest are not disengaged from the spiritual realm. All of them are hooked into a reality that is shut off from atheists.

Hugo said...

MAKARIOS:
"While only one religion is based on rational and historical facts"

Anybody from any other religion here?
Makarios thinks his religion is better than yours! Lol
Plus, historical facts are of no use to prove the truthiness of any religion.

"the rest are not disengaged from the spiritual realm. All of them are hooked into a reality that is shut off from atheists."

Define spirituality, because I do feel like I am a spiritual being, even though I don't believe in your imaginary God, since for me it has nothing to do with a supernatural world. Spirituality is personal and arises from consciousness. If you believe you have a soul that’s not related to your body; prove its existence.