Wednesday, October 7, 2009

Richard Dawkins Thinks You Are A Fool

. Richard Dawkins tells us that the unknown origins of the universe pose no problem for Darwin’s theory.

. Richard Dawkins tells us the origin of the universe really isn’t that difficult to comprehend.

. Richard Dawkins tells us that the “spontaneous arising” of DNA should not surprise us.

. Richard Dawkins tells us that “the magic of large numbers” makes anything possible.

. Richard Dawkins tells us that perhaps a billion planets in the universe host life.

. Richard Dawkins tells us his conjecture on the origins of life “completely demolishes” any need for design or designer to explain non-life turning into life.

Do any of these nonsensical statements embarrass his followers? I don’t think so.

The irony of Richard Dawkins believing that life arose from non-life in a primordial soup on planet earth is almost too much to contain without laughing out loud. What’s the irony you ask? The idea that it was a vast ocean or pre-biotic soup is not the result of specific and detailed evidence. It is in fact an idea that comes directly from the Bible. Noting this, mathematician Hubert Yockey, who is no fan of Richard says that Dawkins must be a religious fanatic to even suggest such a thing.

The comments above are just Richard Dawkins gambling that the majority of atheists are fools. Come to think about it, from a Biblical perspective that’s a sure bet.

Obviously he’s testing the waters to see just how far he can push their gullible nature. What follows however is what proves how serious Richard Dawkins is about his smoke and mirrors show.

A living system must do at least three things:
. It must be able to process energy

. It must be able to store information and

. It must be able to replicate.

Living things do this. Non living things don’t do this.

In my mind, Richard’s comment that there are a billion or more planets with life on them shows us several things.

. Insurmountable improbabilities pose no intellectual problems for this preeminent atheist.

. Richard Dawkins hates a God that he doesn’t believe in so much that his rage has absolutely clouded his judgement.

. Or Richard Dawkins is a hypocrite of first order, contradicting what he says with what he does. Before you say ‘O Rod, that’s just unfair,’compare this next comment of Dawkins with his adamant demand that there is no God (something that cannot be supported by current evidence), and that there is life on at least a billion planets (something else that cannot be supported by current evidence).

“As a lover of truth, I am suspicious of strongly held beliefs that are unsupported by evidence.”

That’s a comment that Dawkins levels at Christians but obviously lives out in his own life.

Now, if you love watching someone attempt to beat the odds, forget Las Vegas or Monte Carlo. It’s far more entertaining to let Richard Dawkins explain how life came about. To put the modern atheist’s supposition on origins in perspective, an atheist astronomer has calculated the following regarding our coming into being.

Penrose and Hawking have calculated that the odds of a life supporting universe such as ours, with it’s exquisitely finely tuned constants and quantities coming into being by chance or by accident to be one chance in 10,0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000, 0000000000.

Think about that for a few moments. It’s important!

The reality of those odds should hit you like a truck. Why? Because science states that anything greater than 10 ^ 50 is the same as impossible. On the one hand Hawking has said “If all the grains of sand on all the beaches of the Earth were possible universes, and only one of those grains of sand was a universe that allowed for the existence of intelligent life, then that one grain of sand is the universe we inhabit. It would be very difficult to explain why the universe should have begun in just this way, except as the act of a God who intended to create beings like us.”

In the face of this evidence, why would Hawking continue to search for natural solutions? He has to. In order to maintain their dogmatic denial of God’s existence, atheists must believe that the impossible is possible.

Not to be outdone by Stephen Hawking, Richard Dawkins proposes that the following all came about via random chance.

There are eighty different types of amino acids.
Only twenty of them are found in living organisms.

According to evolutionary biologists, out of the eighty amino acids (that evolved from absolutely dead matter, remember, inert gases to be exact):

. The exact correct collection of amino acids were able to isolate themselves.

According to evolutionary biologists, these amino acids linked themselves together:

. In just the right sequence in order to produce protein molecules.

So what we’re faced with is the extreme improbability of obtaining any specific amino acid sequence needed for the proteins of life systems. The high probability of breakdown by hydrolysis of amino acid chains if they were to form in the first place. There is no known way to achieve 100% left-handed amino acids in proteins or the 100% right-handed sugars in RNA and DNA - all of which are universal to life systems. All natural processes are known to produce a 50-50% mixture of left-handed and right-handed molecules. Photo dissociation of water vapor has been a source of oxygen since the Earth formed, and there is substantial geologic evidence that a significant amount of oxygen existed in the atmosphere prior to the advent of photosynthesis. Oxygen breaks down amino acids and sugars that are postulated to have formed! There is no known natural source of the information that is present in all life systems. Random processes have never been known to produce information.

According to atheists, without any intelligence guiding the process, all the possible combinations regarding the beginnings of life just fell into place. Not only that but, as Richard knows, other molecules tend to react more readily with amino acids than amino acids react with each other. How did those extraneous molecules get eliminated? Just luck? Just time plus luck? Does Richard Dawkins have an answer? No, he doesn’t. Perhaps that’s why it irritates him so much when he meets Christians who appear to do the same thing. We tend to despise in others the flaws that we are dimly aware of in our own lives. Nevertheless, does it matter to him that he doesn’t have an answer? Apparently not. Dawkins says that - listen carefully because this is Dawkins at this best -

“Once the vital ingredient - some kind of genetic molecule - is in place, true Darwinian natural selection can follow.”

Well, yes, of course. So let’s not worry ourselves with how the vital ingredient got into place. It’s only the single most important step in all of biology. Let’s just skip along to the wonders of evolution shall we?

You see Dawkins must think you are a fool because as he knows, as improbable as a coded molecule simply appearing out of lifeless gases is, a coded molecule is not all that you need to make life. That “vital ingredient - that genetic molecule” being in place so that natural selection can follow is light years from what I’ve explained so far.

My question is, does that fact matter to you? And if not, why not?

Then there’s the issue of the coming together of an equal number of amino acids that are right and left-handed. Why?

. Only the left-handed amino acids work in living matter.

. Only these select left-handed amino acids must link together in the right sequence.

. The correct kind of chemical bonds - meaning peptide bonds must come into existence.

. These have to form themselves (without any guiding principle, remember) into the correct position.

. Only then will the protein be able to fold in a specific three-dimensional way.

. If this doesn’t all happen exactly right, it simply won’t function.

Richard tells you without the flicker of a smile, and expects you to believe that this has happened not just once, which is implausible enough, but a billion times, by accident, with no intelligence guiding this process. It’s like a blindfolded person reaching into a basket full of one billion letters from all the language groups in the world and coming up with a sentence that says, in only one language -

"Atheists are gullible. They will grasp at the most preposterous claim. As long as Richard Dawkins tells them that it’s true.”

Not only must this person get all the right letters for the right words. The grammar must be correct. The punctuation must be correct. The spacing must be proper. Remember of course the letters might come out of the basket upside down, or backwards or they might simply be the wrong letters. The letters in the above three sentences represent the amino acids that have to be put together in just the right manner to make a protein molecule. In pure cynicism Richard Dawkins thinks that you, the fool that he imagines you to be, will not have any problem with this. But that’s just first step.

. Creating one protein molecule doesn’t mean that you’ve created life.

. Now you have to bring together a collection of protein molecules -

. Roughly two hundred protein molecules with just the right functions are needed to get a typical living cell.

Now we can begin to see why Richard Dawkins’ new hypothesis is a call for infinite universes. The odds of non life turning into life, accidentally, in just one universe even within an infinite time frame is infinitely impossible. In the desperate atheist mind-set, if you have enough universes where this might happen, well, it just “logically” increases your odds that the impossible might become possible. I don’t know what Oy Vey means but I think that it might fit here. Anyhow -

This of course, proposed by Darwin and upheld by today’s Senate of leading atheists requires the theory of helpful mutations. Daniel Dennett says that mutations don’t occur even once in a trillion “copyings.” And we need not just any mutation but helpful mutations. Geneticist Giuseppe Sermonti says, “[Mutation] effect in all instances is to demolish. Transgressions of the kind needed by Darwinian evolution have never been documented.” After all, with many millions of mutations in over a century of highly controlled laboratory work with the fruit fly, science has totally failed to show that helpful mutations would occur frequently enough to go from one cell to us in an eternity. Perhaps these atheist authors are suggesting that trillions of “helpful” mutations actually come about easier in the wild than in the lab? As long as Dawkins’ followers are naive enough to keep buying his books he'll keep churning out absurd thoughts one after another.

Now, we must remember that the guiding principle in assembling all these pieces is DNA. In a classic understatement, Richard Dawkins says, “all that’s needed” is DNA / RNA. Not unlike those who used to believe that maggots “spontaneously” arose from covered heaps of garbage, and thus proved that God did not exist, DNA is what Dawkins says spontaneously arose from completely dead matter. Here’s a few important points about DNA.

. Every cell of every plant and animal has to have a DNA molecule.

. DNA works hand in glove with RNA to direct the correct sequencing of amino acids.

. It’s able to do this through biochemical instructions (the information) that are encoded on the DNA. Dawkins’ “vital ingredient” is a code written in a four-letter chemical alphabet whose letters are combined in various sequences to form words, sentences and paragraphs. All the instructions needed to guide the functioning of the cell are written in that DNA code. In fact this code works just like the letters of our alphabet, to form what we want to say. But this isn’t just a sentence or even a thousand sentences. Whatever put these directions into the cell had a lot to say. In fact each single microscopic cell in the human body contains more information than is contained in 1,000 sets of the Encyclopaedia Britannica.

. It can only be bigotry, atheist chauvinism and ultra scientism that causes Richard Dawkins to refuse to ask,
“Who programmed the cell with its digital code?

Who gave it the capacity to make copies of itself?

Who made a universe with the laws that could produce mankind?

What is the ultimate explanation for why reality is structured in this way and not another?”

Dawkins, who insists that evolution operates according to principles of time and chance neglects the fact that it also depends on the exquisitely finely tuned laws of a universe that itself is not the product of time and chance. Richard Dawkins hopes that you are too dull of mind to think about that.

Where did this DNA come from and how did it come into being are important questions because the making of DNA makes the development of a protein cell look like child’s play. Both DNA and RNA are extremely complicated, yet Dawkins would have you believe that DNA appeared out of inert gas and for that to happen, all it took was lots & lots of time.

Why then, when the synthesis of key building blocks for DNA and RNA have never been successfully created except under highly implausible conditions, why would Richard Dawkins have you believe that it could come about in the hostile conditions of early earth? It’s because he thinks you are a fool. He hopes that you won’t guess that his hypotheses arise due solely to his rabid hatred for Christianity.

Klaus Dose of the Institute for Biochemistry in Mainz, Germany said, “The difficulties in synthesizing DNA and RNA are at present beyond our imagination.”

Since atheist scientists are nothing if not imaginative, that statement says a lot.

As Nobel Prize-winner Sir Francis Crick said, “The origin of life appears to be almost a miracle, so many are the conditions which would have had to be satisfied to get it going.”

So here we have the belief system of the Richard Dawkins: A person who says that he has no need of faith. He’s a person who says that he’s sceptical of any strongly held beliefs in the absence of evidence. Yet this person confidently boasts that life began:

. When biopolymers (such as proteins) became assembled

. With only the right building blocks (amino acids)

. And only the correct isomers (left-handed amino acids)

. Joined with only the correct peptide bonds

. In only the correct sequence.

How does this come about by accident? Dawkins says “mutation” as though simply saying the word solves the problems. Anyone who questions Dawkins is immediately called a “Creationist” which in Richard’s mind renders the questioner intellectually impotent. As Richard recently said, “Thinking is anathema to religion.” Meanwhile Richard Dawkins gazes into the heavens and proclaims “Lots of Galaxies? Problem solved!”

Citing Dawkins as a prime example, mathematician Hubert Yockey writes, “People who do not understand probability often say that extremely improbable events occur frequently.”

Ignoring simple chemistry and hoping no one will notice, Richard Dawkins also glibly ignores, Omne Vivum ex vivo - “Life can only come from life.” Nothing that has taken place in scientific inquiry has done anything to realistically suggest, much less prove that it can be any other way.

76 comments:

JD Curtis said...

Or, if you prefer, simply close your eyes and chant "There has to be a naturalist explanation, there has to be a naturalistic explanation" over and over again. I heard that if you do it long and loud enough that it'll make it true. Talk about belief in "magic".

Makarios said...

May God bless you brother. And may you enjoy Him and His peace forever.

Hugo said...

Ignorange is bliss.

No time for more right now, but thanks for proving that I was right about at least one thing: You prefer to spit as much blog posts as possible instead of engaging in discussion concerning what you already wrote...

Just for you, some interesting song lyrics:

"Heresy"

He sewed his eyes shut because he is afraid to see
He tries to tell me what I put inside of me
He's got the answers to ease my curiosity
He dreamed a god up and called it Christianity
Your god is dead and no one cares
If there is a hell I'll see you there
He flexed his muscles to keep his flock of sheep in line
He made a virus that would kill off all the swine
His perfect kingdom of killing, suffering and pain
Demands devotion atrocities done in his name
Your god is dead and no one cares
Drowning in his own hypocrisy
And if there is a hell I'll see you there
Burning with your god in humility

Will you die for this?

JD Curtis said...

I have heard it said that Hell is a lonely place Hugo. Ever heard that before Mak?

Makarios said...

"Your god is dead and no one cares"

That's funny.

JD Curtis said...

Wait, it gets better.....

"Richard Dawkins, the world’s leading public spokesman for Darwinian evolution and an advocate of the “new atheism,” has refused to debate Dr. Stephen C. Meyer, a prominent advocate of intelligent design and the author of the acclaimed Signature in the Cell: DNA and the Evidence for Intelligent Design.



“Richard Dawkins claims that the appearance of design in biology is an illusion and claims to have refuted the case for intelligent design,” says Dr. Meyer who received his Ph.D. in the philosophy of science from the University of Cambridge in England.



“But Dawkins assiduously avoids addressing the key evidence for intelligent design and won’t debate its leading proponents,” adds Dr. Meyer. “Dawkins says that there is no evidence for intelligent design in life, and yet he also acknowledges that neither he nor anyone else has an evolutionary explanation for the origin of the first living cell. We know now even the simplest forms of life are chock-full of digital code, complex information processing systems and other exquisite forms of nanotechnology.” Link

SmartLX said...

This is pointless, I'm beginning to realise. The bulk of the evidence for God which you present comes from various atheists, from Dawkins to Hawking to Guth.

Do you think every single atheist with any intelligence is actively denying evidence in order to avoid believing in God? Do you even think there's such a thing as a real atheist, or are they all Christians in denial?

Or is it possible that there are good reasons why this stuff does not point to a God, which the above scientists go on to explain? Have you read any of the actual books these paraphrases come from, like The God Delusion or A Brief History of Time? Or are you simply cribbing from what Dawkins calls the "fleas", the long-winded responses to the books online and in print? What would you think if we pointed out contradictions in the Bible having only read the Skeptics' Annotated Bible and not the Bible itself?

Have you been to our sources?

Gorth Satana said...

"Richard’s comment that there are a billion or more planets with life on them shows us several things."

He didn't say that.

"On the one hand Hawking has said "

I posted the context of that quote in another thread.

"In the face of this evidence, why would Hawking continue to search for natural solutions?"

What evidence?

Anyway, universe. 6 to 10 thousand years old?

SmartLX said...

JD, Dawkins doesn't debate any creationists and hasn't since the eighties when they tried to invade the Oxford teaching staff. The reason is purely PR: he doesn't want to give them the "oxygen of respectability" they would get by standing on a stage figuratively "level" with a scientist. In fact there have been very few debates on creation involving evolutionary biologists since before Hovind went to jail for just this reason. They're not avoiding Meyer in particular.

That doesn't stop Dawkins from addressing creationist arguments, however. Have you read The Greatest Show on Earth?

JD Curtis said...

Not yet. Meyer isnt a Creationist though. He'd argue Intelligent Design, which is far easier to argue IMO.

SmartLX said...

ID is a form of creationism, and all proponents of ID are religious creationists. Meyer studied at two Christian colleges, Whitworth College (affiliated with the Presbyterian Church) and Palm Beach Atlantic University. He co-founded the Discovery Institute partly on the apologetics of C.S. Lewis.

Name one ID proponent who has categorically denied that he/she thinks his/her personal god is the designer.

Alternatively, name an atheist or agnostic who is an ID proponent.

JD Curtis said...

I've only ever heard Meyer argue ID and not Creationism.

For an answer to your 2nd question Robert Jastrow

JD Curtis said...

Here's another...

"Honest critics of intelligent design acknowledge the difference between intelligent design and creationism. University of Wisconsin historian of science Ronald Numbers is critical of intelligent design, yet according to the Associated Press, he "agrees the creationist label is inaccurate when it comes to the ID [intelligent design] movement." Why, then, do some Darwinists keep trying to conflate intelligent design with creationism? According to Dr. Numbers, it is because they think such claims are "the easiest way to discredit intelligent design." In other words, the charge that intelligent design is "creationism" is a rhetorical strategy on the part of Darwinists who wish to delegitimize design theory without actually addressing the merits of its case." Link

Gorth Satana said...

Deists, huh.
Anyway, I have never come across an argument for I.D. that wasn't an argument from ignorance or an argument from incredulity.

SmartLX said...

Jastrow was a cosmologist. His remarks, taken up by the ID lobby without his consent, do not concern evolution or life at all, but refer to the origin of the universe. There is no evidence that he was critical of evolution in the slightest. If anything he was an agnostic evolutionist the way Francis Collins is a theistic evolutionist.

Meyer has to differentiate ID from creationism, because a goal of the Discovery Institute is to promote the teaching of ID in US public schools and this is unconstitutional if ID is at all religious.

The verdict of the Dover trial disagreed with Numbers, and has greater impact than his opinion. I'll spare you any quotes from the verdict, because I bet you know what was said.

The principal reason for the current legal equivalence of creationism and ID was not the scientific arguments, I'll give you that. Ken Miller addressed those on their own merits.

No, it was other stuff: 1. every single person involved in the Pennsylvanian ID campaign was found to have religious motives, and 2. the core ID literature (e.g. Of Pandas and People) was revealed as creationist literature which had been subjected to a search-and-replace (hence the term "cdesign proponentsists").

Given that no ID proponent has actually started with the evidence rather than their own personal religious text, the principal difference from creationism given on intelligentdesign.org is simply false.

JD Curtis said...

Gorth, you should check out this book. Why, you could make yourself famous by debunking a famous philosopher of science. If you click on the "Look Inside" part of the link, you can even read a few pages free of charge to sort of wet your appetite and get you started.

SmartLX said...

JD, the argument from information in DNA is an argument from ignorance.

It goes: because there is no known way for DNA to have acquired the information it currently contains, that information must have been deliberately placed there.

Two issues:
1. There are known ways for information (including so-called coded information) to increase without intelligent intervention and therefore the appearance of a genome is not simply inexplicable. (Dembski's "Law of Conservation of Information", intended to defend the same DNA argument, is on the same level of credibility as Rod's own "Law of First Cause".)
2. Even if there weren't any known ways, there could be unknown ways. (This is the hallmark of an argument from ignorance: something is presented as impossible where it is merely, apparently, unexplained.)

JD Curtis said...

Jastrow was a cosmologist

Sorry, I don't recall you saying that I couldnt use a cosmologist.

His remarks, taken up by the ID lobby without his consent, do not concern evolution or life at all, but refer to the origin of the universe.

Do they refer to a designer?


There is no evidence that he was critical of evolution in the slightest

Perhaps he believed in micro-evolution. His lack of attacking evolution in a manner satisfactory to your standards not withstanding, he appears to have been, A. a scientist and B. entertained the possibility of a designer. And C. An agnostic

The verdict of the Dover trial disagreed with Numbers, and has greater impact than his opinion.

A judge in PA sided against a couple of schoolboard members that tried to circumvent the system. Period.

Given that no ID proponent has actually started with the evidence rather than their own personal religious text, the principal difference from creationism given on intelligentdesign.org is simply false.

What denomination are bacteria flagellum?

SmartLX said...

I didn't say you couldn't use a cosmologist, but you can't use a cosmologist who's not an ID proponent as an example of an ID proponent.

Even Richard Dawkins believes in intelligent design, when it's design by humans, but would you call him an ID proponent?

An ID proponent, in the sense of the people Dawkins refuses to debate, is someone who argues that design is directly responsible for achievements which science attributes to evolution. An ID proponent, by definition, attacks or challenges evolution in some way. These are the people who are all religious.

Jastrow didn't, and wasn't. He entertained the possibility of a designer, but did not support Intelligent Design "theory" as laid out by the Discovery Institute.

I draw your attention again to Francis Collins, who believes there is a designer, and that He designed evolution to produce humans. While this kind of design is intelligent design, it is compatible with evolution. Collins is therefore not an ID proponent (and would protest angrily if you called him one), but a theistic evolutionist.

That "period" of yours is now legal precedent, and the official opinion of the US Government. The burden is on ID proponents to challenge its verdict in court, or they're stuck with an official association to religion.

The denomination of those who presented (and continue to present) the bacterial flagellum as irreducibly complex is Christianity. Mechanisms by which it likely evolved were laid out as early as 1994, two years before the first official claim of irreducible complexity. That research was not addressed by ID proponents in their initial claims, and yet it was available to the public. Therefore ID proponents did not consider the available evidence, e.g. plausible methods of evolution, when they started the irreducible complexity argument. They didn't check their own conclusions against anything.

Makarios said...

JD: "neither he nor anyone else has an evolutionary explanation for the origin of the first living . . ."

Well you see, that's just not true JD. I think it's Hugo who has lots and lots of "from inert gas to living cell" ideas. In fact evolving from dead matter into living matter is a very well understood concept. Right Hugo?

JD Curtis said...

I didn't say you couldn't use a cosmologist, but you can't use a cosmologist who's not an ID proponent as an example of an ID proponent.

Then can I use an atheist that finds ID reasonable? Dr Bradley Monton

Even Richard Dawkins believes in intelligent design, when it's design by humans, but would you call him an ID proponent?

Was the designer Jastrow referred to human?

An ID proponent, in the sense of the people Dawkins refuses to debate, is someone who argues that design is directly responsible for achievements which science attributes to evolution

When did Dawkins ever define this? He seems to just lump them all together as "Creationists" and refuses to debate them at all.

Jastrow didn't, and wasn't. He entertained the possibility of a designer, but did not support Intelligent Design "theory" as laid out by the Discovery Institute.

I thought we were discussing Intelligent Design (a designer) and in no way were we discussing his (Jastrow's) need to support any organization.



The denomination of those who presented (and continue to present) the bacterial flagellum as irreducibly complex is Christianity. Mechanisms by which it likely evolved were laid out as early as 1994

Likely? Mak, are there any mathematical statistics in which the possiblity is laid out concerning the odds that all 30 or so pieces in this little "mini-engine" evolved over a period of time? I'm not dismissing it out of hand. I just wonder what the odds are.

Therefore ID proponents did not consider the available evidence, e.g. plausible methods of evolution, when they started the irreducible complexity argument. They didn't check their own conclusions against anything.

Really? All of this has piqued my interest so much that I just ordered Meyers' book. I'll see if there's a chapter on that.

SmartLX said...

Monton goes further in support of ID than any atheist I've heard from yet, but he doesn't actually think it's true. He's part of the current wave of accommodationists scapegoating the loud end of both religion and atheism, and their trademark is olive branches. Would you refer to him as an ID proponent if he opposes it, even if he doesn't think it's completely worthless?

It's the definition of intelligent design by the DI that Jastrow didn't support, as opposed to the organisation itself. That's because the DI defines ID at least partly in terms of its superiority to natural selection.

Fine, if you want to expand the definition of ID proponents to anyone who seriously considers the possibility of a designer in any aspect of the universe, then there are at least some agnostics in the group. But this group would also include devout Catholics Francis Collins and Ken Miller, who Dawkins would not only happily debate but would consider allies at least with respect to evolution.

Evolution is the key issue, so I'll rephrase: all active opponents of evolution, including those who advocate intelligent design as supposedly separate from creationism, are religious. I am also confident that their primary reason for opposing evolution in all cases is THAT they are religious, though the majority of public figures have good reasons for giving non-religious reasons.

The methods of evolution of the flagellum are relatively likely compared to other methods because useful subsets such as the Type Three Secretory System were utilised in the explanations which have been observed. That makes these methods more likely than those which do not use known subsets as intermediates. It also challenges the central point of irreducible complexity: that there are no possible subsets.

I'm confident that the irreducible complexity argument was developed without reference to contemporary research because of Michael Behe's admission that he hadn't read any of the collected research which was presented to him at the Dover trial. And that was nine years after Darwin's Black Box.

Hugo said...

I think it's Hugo who...

Yes I did say that it was well understood, not proven yet, just like the Big Bang Theory.

Btw, I almost missed that comment. I guess that's what happens when you post so many blog posts...

First, I want to make something clear. I have no idea why you insist on proving that Abiogenesis is impossible. Whether it's true or not should not even have an influence on your beliefs, as you will always be able to say “God did it” for anything else that we don't fully understand.

Why am I helping you here? Because I don't want to disprove God, I want to promote science, reason, and rational thinking. Honestly, I don't give a dam about what people believe in. What I care about is the truth. So when I see people trying to talk against scientific advancement to promote their religious agenda, I get upset. Not because of their religion, but because they talk bullshit against the science method that has been so useful to us all to get to the truth concerning the world we live in. Moreover, what I find extremely ironic is that people who believe in God will often use the argument “You cannot prove God does not exists!”. Right now, I feel like the position is switched!

I think it must be also clear that I do not believe in any Abiogenesis theories, I just think that it's more probable than a “God did it” explanation. Why? Because “God did it” is freaking useless... so basically anything else is equally/more probable.

Ok, finally, let's address Abiogenesis. First, I need to admit that only a few months ago I did not even know what current Abiogenesis Theories were saying. I had heard about the idea that lightnings could create some building blocks for life on our young Earth 3 billion years ago but that's about it... When I went looking for more information (after talking to a Theist, haha, so ironic again), I realized that the lightning explanation came from the famous Miller–Urey experiment that showed in a lab how amino acid could be formed, but NOT replicating molecules.

Because of what I just said, I am obviously not in a good position to give you any explanations myself. Plus, I doubt that you will even care, and even if you do, and are convinced by my explanations, it won't change anything, so why bother...

The only summary I could give you is this: Simple lipid molecules tend to aggregate themselves. Some other molecules such as the ancestors of RNA were protected inside these lipid molecules. RNA with the help of enzymes and amino acids were able to reproduce themselves. Better cells survived. Evolution started... bingo.

Of course, I might be wrong because of the words I used or because I over-simplified the model I presented. Plus, I did not even read anything before writing this so it's just the general picture I have in my mind that I try to put down here...

Therefore, I will give you links, that I already had saved, to a few videos and 3 articles for you to watch/read. Articles are from the New Scientist since they are usually easier to read than peer-reviewed papers such as Nature. Make up your own mind!

- Wikipedia? Did you at least read that? The article on Abiogenesis has 91 references you know...
- 3 - The Origin of Life Made Easy
- The Origin Of Life: Chemistry + Biology = Abiogenesis
- The Origin of Life – Abiogenesis – THE BEST in my opinion...
- New Scientist 2009-01-19
- New Scientist 2003-10-23
- New Scientist 2003-07-27

Hugo said...

Hey MAKARIOS and OTHERS,

I decided that it was finally time for me to have my own blog.

Actually, I already had created one a few days ago because I wanted to share a little sketch with someone.

One user who writes here, "His Lordship", noticed my sketch and thought I should show it to you Makarios, so why not? It's related to your misconception of what infinity or the Big Bang truly represent.

At the same time, it made me realize that I could spend some time, once in a while, to write something on that temporary blog I had already created... so I decided to put my Abiogenesis reply as my first real blog post!

Just click on my username or browse to http://hugo-temp.blogspot.com to find out.

Cheers!

JD Curtis said...

I want to promote science, reason, and rational thinking. Honestly, I don't give a dam about what people believe in. What I care about is the truth. So when I see people trying to talk against scientific advancement to promote their religious agenda, I get upset. Not because of their religion, but because they talk bullshit against the science method that has been so useful to us all to get to the truth concerning the world we live in.

If I could drag you away from playing the Big Hero For Science for a moment, can you disprove the following statements?

1. The underlying premise of evolution by natural selection is a logical one, not a scientific one.

2. That this theory has hampered the development of other, more useful biological science.

3. As one blogger put it, "the predictive models evolutionary theory produces are reliably incorrect and fall well short of the standard set by the hard sciences. In fact, they seldom even rise to the much lower standard of the social sciences."

Makarios said...

Hugo, thank you.

Adam said...

JD, I'd like to see you prove those three assertions. No supposition, actual proof.

SmartLX said...

Personally, I'd just like to know what area of biological science JD thinks isn't related to evolution.

JD Curtis said...

I would be willing to explore these statements with an open mind. Will HUGO? Mak! Mak! Special request here. Could you please post those three items on a new thread? Hugo (or others here) can try to disprove them and we can discuss the topics. I don't think Hugo has the cohones to face the possibility that that his religion might be based on a logical assumption rather than the science that he is a allegedly defending.

SmartLX said...

In that case, Mak, maybe a fourth post on atheism as religion?

JD Curtis said...

Atheism as a religion? Your mileage may vary from country to country but here in the US, the federal Court of Appeals has already ruled that it is a religion.

A federal court of appeals ruled yesterday Wisconsin prison officials violated an inmate's rights because they did not treat atheism as a religion.
"Atheism is [the inmate's] religion, and the group that he wanted to start was religious in nature even though it expressly rejects a belief in a supreme being," the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals said.
Link

SmartLX said...

True, and that's fair enough from a legal perspective. Of course I wish religions weren't afforded special privileges so that atheism didn't have to be classified as a religion for atheists to get a fair shake, but at least that solution's available to us.

Adam said...

So you can't prove them JD? You'd like to explore them?

The assumption with asking someone to disprove something is that that something is proven.

You've yet to do that so it's inappropriate for you to ask someone to disprove it.

JD Curtis said...

no ID proponent has actually started with the evidence rather than their own personal religious text

I really don't know if they are ID proponents or not. But they seem to have a problem with Darwinism.

"As a biochemist and software developer who works in genetic and metabolic screening, I am continually amazed by the incredible complexity of life. For example, each of us has a vast ‘computer program’ of six billion DNA bases in every cell that guided our development from a fertilized egg, specifies how to make more than 200 tissue types, and ties all this together in numerous highly functional organ systems. Few people outside of genetics or biochemistry realize that evolutionists still can provide no substantive details at all about the origin of life, and particularly the origin of genetic information in the first self-replicating organism. What genes did it require – or did it even have genes? How much DNA and RNA did it have – or did it even have nucleic acids? How did huge information-rich molecules arise before natural selection? Exactly how did the genetic code linking nucleic acids to amino acid sequence originate? Clearly the origin of life – the foundation of evolution - is still virtually all speculation, and little if no fact."

Chris Williams, Ph.D., Biochemistry Ohio State University


"Darwinian evolution, whatever its other virtues, does not provide a fruitful heuristic in experimental biology."

Dr. Philip S. Skell, Member National Academy of Sciences, Emeritus Evan Pugh Professor at Pennsylvania State University

SmartLX said...

So you're going to start down the A Scientific Dissent From Darwinism list? Fine, though if these people haven't said whether they're religious it has little to do with my point. People who are religious do not give religious reasons for their positions if they want non-religious people to agree.

Chris Williams (if you take his quote at face value) challenges abiogenesis because he doesn't know how it happened. Nobody does for sure. All current hypotheses are speculative. A lot of the research is along the lines of his questions, which are very relevant. That's how science works: if they don't know something, they work at it.

The main issue is where he calls it "the foundation of evolution". Not quite. It's closely linked to the premise of evolution: that self-replicating organisms exist. Well, they do. Where they came from is indeed a mystery - a god could have done it, sure - but Darwin's theory only applies to the origin of life if life itself came about via some sort of natural selection. Given that the premise is not assured, it's just as likely to have been a one-off chemical reaction. Everyone agrees at least that the conditions for that are incredibly rare.

The very next thing out of Skell's pen was, "None of this demonstrates that Darwinism is false." As for his point about the use of the theory, has he addressed any of these uses directly?

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