Saturday, October 31, 2009

Is This a Straw Man?

Christians believe, and the Bible says, that Creator God (who is Spirit) brought everything material into existence out of nothing.

The Standard Big Bang Model says that everything material came into existence out of nothing, but the model doesn't / can’t yet say Why or How.

Atheists do not believe in God but they do believe in and trust the scientific model of inquiry - or so they say when it suits their argument :-)

If the BB model is correct, then atheists believe or at least accept that everything came from nothing by nothing.

Of course atheists don’t say this explicitly but it's implicit in the following atheist beliefs:

. No God exists - Do atheists say this or not?

. Nothing Supernatural exists - Do atheists say this or not?

. I only accept what has been determined by science - Do atheists say this or not?

What has been determined by science? The best evidence to date (back ground radiation, 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, expanding universe etc. etc) points to:

. Standard Model: Everything existed after the Singularity - 1st Law of Thermodynamics.

. Standard Model: Nothing existed prior to the Singularity; no space, no time, no energy, no matter, no laws of physics.

. Consistently Observed: Nothing begins to exist without an external cause (You, me, machines, buildings, clothes, art, music, galaxies, stars, the universe, even your little brown turds). Everything that begins to exist has a cause that is external to itself.

. Scientifically Obvious: The universe began to exist.

Most atheists accept that the universe contains everything material that exists.

Most atheists accept that anything that begins to exist has a cause. Even Hume wouldn't say something so stupid as that something can begin to exist without a cause.

If just before Everything material existed, Nothing material existed, and if everything that begins to exist has an external cause, then atheists are saying that Nothing caused Everything to come into being.

Now, how is that a Straw Man? OR is there something that atheists believe that is being left unspoken? And if so, what?

29 comments:

Hugo said...

I will post a reply to a comment from a previous post because it's relevant to this blog post to, which is more recent.


MAK: "the Standard Big Bang Model does say that there was nothing natural."
HUGO: "Energy is not natural?"
MAK: "I don't know what you mean by asking that. Have I suggested that energy is not natural/material?"

When we talk about the singularity, we talk about a point infinitely dense, with infinite energy. No?

================
MAK: I know that the evidence suggests that if it was not natural then it was something other than natural, if not material then it was something other than material.

What kind of evidence?
Not material = not natural!?!?


==================

HUGO: Why do you say that there was nothing natural when the model point to a singular point described as infinite energy? 0 = infinity?

MAK: What model says that?

I thought we both agreed on the definition of the singularity at time 0 included the idea that it was only energy, no matter, so it tends to infinity.

I.e. infinite energy, not nothing.

Where does the energy comes from?I don't know, do you?

Perhaps a supernatural event? How can you explain it? It seems to be your favorite?

Perhaps a quantum fluctuation?

Membranes colliding?

Perhaps there are an infinite number of universes each with different constants for each of the different forces, making an infinite number of possible universes like ours.

Anything else?


============

HUGO: In other words, is that what you agree with? =>

"X" has an unknown cause, therefore
"X" has a supernatural cause
"Y" is supernatural
"Y" must be the cause of "X"


MAK: No

"X" has an non natural cause because nothing natural existed therefore

"X" has a supernatural cause, an outside of, and transcendent to nature cause because nothing natural existed.

"Y" is supernatural

"Y" is a better candidate for a Cause than 'Nothing'.


OK, so, let's say I find that convincing. Tell me about "Y" and how you know anything about it? How did it cause the Big Bang to happen? And, funniest of all, why is it better than nothing? lol

Karla said...

From my experience atheist today often circumvent making a positive assertion of the non-existence of God. Instead they say theist make the positive assertion of there being a God and they don't share it. They say they have non-belief not dis-belief. It's their way to avoid claims of certainty and dogmatism. The only thing they seem to claim certainty of is agnosticism, that no one can be certain.

Hugo said...

Why don't you believe in Zeus Karla?
Non-belief or dis-belief?
Can you be certain he does not exist?

I don't see the difference with any other god people talked me about.

Personally I do not believe in any of them. I have yet to find a reason why any concept of a god would point to a real thing.

Ginx said...

Clearly it was the Sky Bull!

YHWH is not eternal. YHWH didn't exist until people dreamed Him up, possibly around 10,000 BC. If YHWH would like to come forward explaining His parentage or origin, I'd be happy to revise my theory.

Also, the Big Bang wasn't out of nothing, it was out of everything, and then everything became less dense, expanding. Maybe it was just the Great Sky Bull farting?

Tristan Vick said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Tristan Vick said...

Atheists don't accept only what's been proven by science. You misunderstand the application of science as a tool for discerning actual events in nature.

Granted, supernatural things which reside outside of nature would be beyond our experience, yours as well, and so we would all have to remain agnostic on such.

Unless, you insert the idea of a "Personal" God, that loves us, and intervenes from time to time, such as sending his son in the form of Jesus Christ--which is what Christians assert. Thus, this enters the realm of human experience, and science becomes and extremely powerful too which can describe what is happening.

Again, your concept of the big bang is antiquated. Please refer to the list of physics books I gave you to update your information regarding the big bang, and then use this information to aid you in adjusting your argument accordingly.

And what makes you so certain that God caused the big bang? I think it was two interdimensional wafting space whales, who brushed up against each other, and their contact energy sparked the big bang.

Can you disprove my hypothesis? No, you can't, just as I can't disprove yours... and so for that reason it is a non-argument... because it's irrefutable to begin with. (By the way, I don't actually believe in wafting space whales, they're just a bit of hyperbole to show the logic fault of supposing any sort of deity was behind the big bang to begin with).

Currently, modern cosmology is still researching the big bang phenomenon, and I think it's premature to come to conclusions either way. All I know is that it seems highly likely the big bang will be proved a natural occurrence, as Quantum mechanics suggests, and as everything else has been determined thus far. But like I said, it's too early to tell for certain, but we can make an educated guess, by simply asking: If God did create it all, and the events up to this point have happened naturally, then what purpose for a miracle which makes it seem like God doesn't exist? Richard Carrier has discussed this problem in detail.

See: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/#science

Besides, Hinduism has parallels with modern cosmology more striking than anything from any Monotheism. Neil Turok and Paul J. Steinhardt talk about it in detail in a section of their book "Endless Universe: Beyond the Big Bang."

Makarios said...

Hugo: You remind me of a client that I once had. He was a drug abuser and his game was this. He'd stolen a CPS (Compendium of Pharmaceuticals and Specialities) from a doctor's office. He’d practice the symptoms for the drugs that he wanted and then go, put on his act for the doctor and of course he'd get them. due to his addiction he’d lost his wife, his job and a place to live. Yet it was all justified because “doctors are so stupid they deserve to be scammed.”

And here you are. You ask a couple questions about Creator God that can’t be answered. And based upon that you justify your rejection of the obvious - The universe came into being because of a supernatural Cause.

Both you and this client have invented a game in which both of you are the losers. It’s sad.
=================

Ginx: Also, the Big Bang wasn't out of nothing, it was out of everything,”

And where was this “everything” Ginx? Before there was space and matter and time and energy and the laws of physics, where was this everything?
===============

Hugo said...

MAK:And here you are. You ask a couple questions about Creator God that can’t be answered. And based upon that you justify your rejection of the obvious - The universe came into being because of a supernatural Cause.

Hilarious. My point is that WE CANNOT ANSWER THEM, thank you Rob, we finally agree. I am glad that you will now reject this non-sense as you have no way to accept it, we just don't know. You call it obvious? Ya, what's obvious is that we don't know...

where was this "everything" Ginx? Before there was space and matter and time and energy and the laws of physics, where was this everything?

You seem to know Rod, tell us more...

Oh ya right, it must be something supernatural because WE DON'T KNOW. Oh no wait, that's not it, it's supernatural because there was nothing natural, hum, but we just said we don't know? oh fuck it, let's just say that since we don't know it must not be natural, and since it's not natural, let's just say it's supernatural, here, we now all agree with Saint-Makarios who proclaimed that even though he does not know... he does know.

Makarios said...

So when Dawkins says that the universe "came literally from nothing," he's wrong?

Gorth Satana said...

Dawkins again?

Hugo said...

"So when Dawkins says that the universe "came literally from nothing," he's wrong?"

Maybe? Do you know?

I certainly do not agree...

Since when do we have to agree with everything Dawkins say?

Actually, HE probably does not agree with everything he said himself! lol.

It's sane to change ideas you know...

Makarios said...

"I certainly do not agree..."

And what's the evidence the leads you to not agreee?

Hugo said...

MAK quoting Dawkins: the universe "came literally from nothing,"

HUGO : I certainly do not agree...

MAK : And what's the evidence the leads you to not agreee?

HUGO : Evidence to not agree? That's non-sense. I did not see any evidence pointing something out of nothing so I don't believe that. Period.

Makarios said...

"I did not see any evidence pointing something out of nothing so I don't believe that."

So you ignore leading scientists who say that the evidence does indeed point to everything coming from “literally nothing,” and then you go off on your own based not on counter evidence but on desire and opinion and wishful thinking and blind-faith?

Hugo said...

"So you ignore leading scientists who say that the evidence does indeed point to everything coming from “literally nothing,” and then you go off on your own based not on counter evidence but on desire and opinion and wishful thinking and blind-faith?"

You said that already, thanks for repeating but you're the one who does not get it.

Observing nothing does not make sense, so when scientists say that it looks like it came out of nothing, it means that what they observe points to a singularity, or any other model which points to "nothing", or to an infinite "something" But it's a MODEL, they don't observe that.

I don't care if it's a singular point toward 0 or toward infinity, same idea, it's a model not actual reality. I don't see any reason to believe that something has no cause at this point.

I heard about quantum fluctuations but I am not familiar enough to really say that I believe this is a causeless cause for the universe, do you? No, because you think your causeless cause must be God, so you do ignore scientists too...

I don't think I will ever believe someone who told me that they have proof that everything came out of nothing, because it makes no sense to me. Perhaps I will be convinced one day, perhaps it will be a GOD!? Who knows?

Side note, if scientists say "out of nothing" in the same manner as when we describe electron jumping in and out of existence, then it does make more sense to say the universe came out of that "nothing". It makes much more sense than to say it's a god! Because that "nothing" is not nothing at all (I repeat myself again here...) it's only another dimension we have no way to detect with our current tools.

But most important of all, please point me to PEER-REVIEWED article indicating that everything came out of nothing, I asked you for that already...

Makarios said...

I heard about quantum fluctuations

Quantum fluctuations do not come out of nothing.

==============

Side note, if scientists say "out of nothing" in the same manner as when we describe electron jumping in and out of existence,
They aren’t talking about that kind of nothing because like you said, that is not nothing.

Hugo said...

"Quantum fluctuations do not come out of nothing."

That's what I would say too!

But from what I understood, some scientists will argue that a quantum fluctuation is causeless by definition, thus providing a natural explanation for the origin of the universe. But I hate talking about things I don't know about and that is the case right now...

==============

Side note, if scientists say "out of nothing" in the same manner as when we describe electron jumping in and out of existence,
They aren’t talking about that kind of nothing because like you said, that is not nothing.


Hum, so you agree that when they say "out of nothing" it does not necessarly means literaly nothing?

Your reasoning confuses me now...

Who says everything came from nothing then? I thought I was the one "denying" science for not agreeing with that...

Makarios said...

"Hum, so you agree that when they say "out of nothing" it does not necessarly means literaly nothing?"

No, I'm not agreeing. Those who say that the Singularity is a QE are ignoring BB cosmology.

First, quantum mechanics is not going to save the atheist here. In QM, virtual particles come into being IN A VACUUM. The vacuum is not NOTHING. In fact it is a sea of fluctuating energy. The energy is endowed with a rich structure and subject to physical laws.

Second, the vacuum is sparked BY A SCIENTIST. There is only one possible Being that could have existed prior to or outside of BB and it wasn’t a scientist.

Third, The particles that exist in a Quantum Event do so for a period of time INVERSELY PROPORTIONAL TO THEIR MASS.

Fourth, in the case of the big bang, there was no vacuum - THERE WAS NOTHING. No scientist, No particles - Nothing.

Fifth, The universe is far too massive to last 14 billion years as a virtual particle.

Sixth, while it’s well known that atheists as a group are easily confused, it is wrong to confuse causality with predictability.

Just because the Heisenberg’s Uncertainty Principle describes our inability to predict the location and speed and subatomic particles, i.e., where an electron will appear, that is not a case of an electron appearing out of nothing. In fact quantum theorists acknowledge that our very attempts to “observe” the speed and location of these particles may make them even more unpredictable to trace.

There is no QM model that involves a true origination ex nihilo.

Finally, atheists will say that the big bang is speculative physics that could change at any moment. Reality is the trend of evidence discovered is moving in favor of an absolute beginning out of nothing.

Atheist physicist Victor Stenger tells us that the Big Bang is looking more probable all the time, “We have to leave open the possibility that [the Big Bang] could be wrong, but every years that goes by, and more astronomical data comes in, it’s more and more consistent with the general Big Bang picture.”

Cliff Walker, “An Interview with Particle Physicist Victor J. Stenger,” at http:www.positiveatheism.com/crt/stenger1.htm

Hugo said...

@MAK
got to be quick for now... might come back later...

1) why do you keep writing "Atheists say blah blah" when talking about physics?

2) You're coming close to what I was pointing out before in another comment thread; Quantum Mechanics present alternative to the singularity, and that's why it's useful! I don't understand why you seem to see it as a contradiction. Your views on mathematics and physics are strange... A singularity is a dead-end, if QM is able to provide explanation without a singularity, then, if proven correct, it's going to be better, more acurate and useful to make new discoveries.

3) Learn to copy/paste links

http:www.positiveatheism.com/crt/stenger1.htm

was in fact...

http://www.positiveatheism.org/crt/stenger1.htm

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