Wednesday, November 4, 2009

Too Many Cookies

I had an atheist tell me that I still hold to outdated rules. Like probably 98% of atheists, seeing life from a child’s point of view led this man to resent a moral system that cramps his style. It’s kind of like this.

Imagine a child who’s had three cookies. They taste really good so he asks his dad for more, and his dad says, “No.” The kid is taken aback. He thinks, ‘How could someone who loves me, deny me what I want?’ He begins to cry and says, “You don’t love me! You’re mean!”

Of course, any parent reading this knows that sometimes we need to say, “No,” to our children. It doesn’t make sense to the kids. It even makes them dislike us. Still, we need to do it for their own good.

Atheists never grow beyond that childish tendency. They cannot imagine someone who loves them ever saying “No” to them or allowing difficulties into their lives, or asking them to deny themselves something that they really, really want. In fact, it’s easer for atheists to imagine that God doesn’t exist than to believe that He would allow hardship and struggle to enter their lives.

For example when God says to save sexual intimacy for a faithful monogamous relationship, atheists, in a childlike manner stomp their feet and say, “That’s an old, stupid, rule.” So what if a world without STD’s could be ours if only we’d obey that rule! In the atheist mind, a world marinaded in the scourge of HIV is more desirable than self-denial - of anything.

When Creator God says to not divorce; when He says to fix the marital problems rather than walk away from them, immature atheists hold their breath until they get their way to pop into and out of relationships. After all, that’s an old rule and how can an old rule have any benefit for today's society? As a result millions of children are forced to put on so many layers of protection that “loving” someone and getting close to someone is becoming practically impossible.

In arrogance and pride, atheists can’t imagine anyone knowing more than they do. So, rather than listening to their Parent they steal cookies until sick to the stomach.

22 comments:

Ginx said...

Divorce was initially opposed by fellow Christians, and divorce is justified in several cases. I know you would not have an abused individual stay with their abuser, even if this is not the primary reason people get divorced.

For the record, atheists divorce less often than the faithful of nearly every religion. However, I agree that some (perhaps many) atheists initially reject religious ethical systems because they disagree with them.

However, which is more childish: doing what one is told or discovering something on your own? While I understand your view, absolutism is only appealing to a simple mind, or a mind craving simplicity. Reality is not as simple as good and bad, black and white, right and wrong, divine or evil.

Makarios said...

"atheists divorce less often"

Actually, you have to get married before you can get divorced.

What's childish is thinking that I know more than my Creator.

Ginx said...

Are you claiming atheists aren't getting married?

I do know better than my creators on some things, just as they know better on others. My parents just have different knowledge, not less (though perhaps more total due to time spent alive, able to learn).

As I know you refer to God, I understand the hubris inherent in any atheist view. However, God is wrong on a great many things. Where is the firmament? Seven days of creation, and only a couple thousand years ago? Sometimes Christianity's Bronze Age origins just shine through...

Tristan Vick said...

I've always found it strange the Bible (and God) would sanction a married woman sleeping with another man, if it was to save her real husbands life.

Does this mean that if I get mugged, that I should allow my wife to have sexual intercourse with the assailant in the hopes of saving my own skin?

The Bible says such strange things. But the way you reconcile it is a little petty, by claiming atheists are the mental equivalent of children. I think what you meant to say was that "some" of the atheist that you know may "act" juvenile from time to time, but that's about all you can say.

Beyond this would be ad hominem, and this, again, does not support your faith. I would be more interested in less harping about the poor examples of people who can't live up to your expectations, and actually more interested in how you defend your core beliefs.

So far, it seems you've been dodging the bullet, and instead of trying to formulate a compelling argument for your case, you turn around and harp on your favorite scapegoat.

It seems fruitless, since what you suggest in this post, that atheists won't listen, is the exact thing you are doing every time you use this tactic. And I find it a bit hypocritical.

And whether or not your "Creator" exists, you can't be as arrogant as to suggest that you know more than everyone else because you have the "authority" of the Creator on your side? If that's the case, then what could anyone ever say that you wouldn't automatically brush aside regardless of the inherent wisdom? Your entire position is based on conceit, and that's not how a Christian should behave, it says so in the Bible. But, then again, the Bible says lots of things.

Hugo said...

Tristan said: "I would be more interested in less harping about the poor examples of people who can't live up to your expectations, and actually more interested in how you defend your core beliefs."

From what I understood during the last few weeks I have been reading this blog, and posting comments, Rod aka Makarios, is not interestes in actually discussing issues.

Look at all the posts he makes... it's insane. He is just spitting his beliefs and intolerance towards atheists he knows nothing about.

Now go look at the comments, for posts that are related to religious/science issues of course, and most of them, if not all of them, end with comments from people who disagree with him. Instead of continuing the discussion, trying to find common ground and move forward, Rod simply write a new blog post...

Gandolf said...

Mak said..."Of course, any parent reading this knows that sometimes we need to say, “No,” to our children. It doesn’t make sense to the kids. It even makes them dislike us. Still, we need to do it for their own good."

Hi Mak i understand what you are saying.But still good parents realize they keep learning too also hmmm?,like sometimes they might say no to kids and then might think about it more.And think well maybe i was a bit wrong.So they can then change.Or say yes! and then later think well that wasnt maybe such a good idea! i wont bother saying yes about that to the kids again.

I also understand what Tristan Vick is meaning when he suggests.."Your entire position is based on conceit, and that's not how a Christian should behave, it says so in the Bible. But, then again, the Bible says lots of things."

Because the problem is the father figure depicted as the "god" in the bible through connonization has lost its ability to still learn and change.

You might now be saying rubbish god/s never have need to learn and change.Gods are the same yesterday today and tomorrow and forever.

But that seems to be wrong.There was a time when stoning folks to death was gods will,then some time later it became a wrong thing to do.

So god/s do change.they evolve.Even your bible proves it!

Mak its not good evidence for proving fact,just because you read it written somewhere.Is it?.

Makarios said...

So god/s do change.they evolve. Even your bible proves it!

that is so sillyl and ignorant, in the true meaning of the word. Suppose that I say that I know how to build a house and then describe a project. I use 5cm nails during one portion and 4cm staple clamps on another. According to you, you'd say, "See, he didn't know how to build the house. He was learning and changing as he went along.
Instead, the use of various techniques was part of the plan all along.

I think atheists actually know this. The problem is that it would ruin all the fun if you admitted that you actually know that the New Testament exists. If, you know that it exists.

Gandolf said...

Mak said..."He was learning and changing as he went along.
Instead, the use of various techniques was part of the plan all along."

Why then is God called a omni all knowing supreme being etc?,who also is said to supposedly be the same "yesterday today and tommorow"....If he supposedly acording to you Mak was needing to "He was learning and changing as he went along"

God/s needing to learn?..Try various techniques?.

That seem to me to be what really dont make much sense.Whats so likely about it?.Does it sound like common sense and good reasoning?..Sure down grade intelligence level of god/s a bit dont it?

You anology i suggest cant ever work for any real honest (comparence)....Your nail and staple anology compare a "mere human" way of learning with that of some supposed "all knowing God".

That surely must be wrong.Why should we only expect (the same) of some magestic God/s, as we expect from mere silly human?

In effect you yourself bring the supposed higer knowledge of god of which (we were told), down to only being no/little more knowledge than that of mere earthly man who we know has "need to learn".

And really i suggest you are exactly right!!..

What we see written in the bible is no more than mere thoughts and ideas of mere man,with some history and factual evidence mixed in.

Makarios said...

If he supposedly acording to you Mak was needing to "He was learning and changing as he went along"

I’m saying that’s what it looks like to someone like you, someone on the outside who cannot possibly comprehend or discern what he’s looking at.

Look, when I’m working with a client, my job is to help that person move from A to B. Once the issue is understood I formulate a plan in my mind. I may actually start out having the person do more of the same, more of what doesn’t work just to hammer home in the client’s mind that what they are doing isn’t working. Then we’ll explore options. Then we’ll do this and finally do that. It’s all part of one plan; a plan that was known from the beginning but it employed the use of different thoughts and behaviours until the plan is completed.

The Bible is clear that the plan for Jesus to die for the sins of the world was in place from before the founding of the cosmos. From which race he’d be born into to the town he’d be born in to the type of execution to the development of the Bride, the Church and so on, all this is part of the same plan but there are many different aspects to that plan.

If you stay as you are, spiritually you will never get that. It will remain obscure and frustrating for you and everyone concerned.


Honestly, I’m disappointed that I keep getting sucked into explaining this over and over. Only God will draw you to Jesus. Only God will open your eyes to spiritual truth. If He isn’t doing that - yet - then anything I say to you will be misunderstood by. You could just as well be watching your favourite sport of taking a nap and it would be better for you.

tinkbell13 said...

Actually, your assumptions about atheists and divorce could not be further from the truth. Actually, Christians have a higher divorce rate than atheists. Here is a quote from religious tolerance.org, and I will be happy to supply you with the link so that you can be a little more properly informed:

"Divorce rates among Christian groups:

The slogan: "The family that prays together, stays together" is well known. There has been much anecdotal evidence that has led to "unsubstantiated claims that the divorce rate for Christians who attended church regularly, pray together or who meet other conditions is only 1 or 2 percent". 8 Emphasis ours]. Dr. Tom Ellis, chairman of the Southern Baptist Convention's Council on the Family said that for "...born-again Christian couples who marry...in the church after having received premarital counseling...and attend church regularly and pray daily together..." experience only 1 divorce out of nearly 39,000 marriages -- or 0.00256 percent. 9

A recent study by the Barna Research Group throws extreme doubt on these estimates. Barna released the results of their poll about divorce on 1999-DEC-21. 1 They had interviewed 3,854 adults from the 48 contiguous states. The margin of error is ±2 percentage points. The survey found:

11% of the adult population is currently divorced.
25% of adults have had at least one divorce during their lifetime.
Divorce rates among conservative Christians were significantly higher than for other faith groups, and much higher than Atheists and Agnostics experience.
George Barna, president and founder of Barna Research Group, commented:

"While it may be alarming to discover that born again Christians are more likely than others to experience a divorce, that pattern has been in place for quite some time. Even more disturbing, perhaps, is that when those individuals experience a divorce many of them feel their community of faith provides rejection rather than support and healing. But the research also raises questions regarding the effectiveness of how churches minister to families. The ultimate responsibility for a marriage belongs to the husband and wife, but the high incidence of divorce within the Christian community challenges the idea that churches provide truly practical and life-changing support for marriages."

According to the Dallas Morning News, a Dallas TX newspaper, the national study "raised eyebrows, sowed confusion, [and] even brought on a little holy anger." This caused George Barna to write a letter to his supporters, saying that he is standing by his data, even though it is upsetting. He said that "We rarely find substantial differences" between the moral behavior of Christians and non-Christians. Barna Project Director Meg Flammang said: "We would love to be able to report that Christians are living very distinct lives and impacting the community, but ... in the area of divorce rates they continue to be the same." Both statements seem to be projecting the belief that conservative Christians and liberal Christians have the same divorce rate. This disagrees with their own data.

Anonymous said...

Here is the link so that you can see for yourself:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_dira.htm

tinkbell13 said...

That was not anonymous, I just messed it up.

Makarios said...

Thank you. This isn't news but I'd never read that particular link before.

tinkbell13 said...

And, actually, to guide you in another one of your many assumptions in your posting.

I think that you should also research how divorce began in the Christian church. Henry VIII established the Protestant Church (to protest) agains the Catholic Church so that his own church could grant him a divorce so that he could marry Anne Boleyn. So, even though us atheists divorce and walk away from commitments, divorce became legal by a patriarch manipulating the Christian church to suit his own needs. No atheist conceived of such a notion.

Here is a link so that you can see for yourself.

http://www.essortment.com/all/protestantism_rcsd.htm

Makarios said...

I think the Bible trumps Henry VIII in dealing with divorce a few millenia earlier but point taken.

tinkbell13 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
tinkbell13 said...

As long as you get the point....

And, this is where Christians have lost mainstream support. Christians use the Bible and its teachings as the compass for their lives. You say that the Bible Trumps Henry VIII, yet, he was a Christian. When it did not work for him, he just reinvented it to suit him. They want their cake, and eat it too. A very great example of how a Christian church of millions was founded on lies. And, yet people continue to never question the foundation, and they continue to support them. Insane.

Makarios said...

"Christians use the Bible and its teachings as the compass for their lives."

Right . . .

"You say that the Bible Trumps Henry VIII, yet, he was a Christian."

You’re starting to lose me . . .

"When it did not work for him, he just reinvented it to suit him."

That’s what many people do. We find it very hard to deny ourselves what we want.

"A very great example of how a Christian church of millions was founded on lies."

Ok, now you’ve lost me completely. I don't get what you're saying. What do you understand that the Bible says about divorce and remarriage?

"And, yet people continue to never question the foundation, and they continue to support them."

I think most people question the reasons for their beliefs a great deal. It took me ten years of questioning before I said, yes, this is the correct way to go. The last three years of “atheist blogging” has also been good for helping me understand what I do and do not believe.

So, help me out with the other stuff. I’m not clear where you’re coming from with Henry VIII.

tinkbell13 said...

It is very very simple, and it seems to be over your head, and I really do not know why.

I brought up the Henry VIII argument because, your posting was full of very blunt assumptions, 2 specifically.

1. Atheists walk away from relationships and divorce more. So, I showed you the most recent stats to clarify the facts in that.

2. I brought in the fact that divorce was initially sanctioned by a Christian who was frustrated by the Catholic Church unwillingness to grant him a divorce. So, he set up the Protestant church. Now, we have millions of people in that church, and the only reason that it was established was so a Christian could sow his wild oats.

I have spoken to many people who do not even understand what the word Protestant means. Yet, they continue to go to church every Sunday never questioning the absurdity of the foundation. You argue, that the Bible and Christians are seperate entities, and you appear to disagree with the way that the Bible is manifested within modern day Christianity. It is this hypocrisy that push people like me. You think that the Bible is the bottom line, and that Henry VIII's manipulation of scripture is a subsequent issue. It is not. The Bible, with all of its hate, created Henry VIII. What I am discussing is highly cerebral.And, if you cannot understand my message, then I can find no other way to explain it.

Makarios said...

“I brought in the fact that divorce was initially sanctioned by a Christian”

Tinker - Divorce was allowed by God, “because of your hard and evil hearts.” The One who instituted marriage is the one who allowed for divorce. It had nothing to do with some earthly king.

“What I am discussing is highly cerebral.”

Only an atheist could say something like that. “I’m a Bright and you’re not.”

tinkbell13 said...

That is not what I said, AT ALL. Only a Christian would make such a simplistic assumption. (Do you like it? Reductionism is not a mark of intelligence, I expect better of you) I have, in fact, blamed myself for my inability to articulate what I thought, if you read carefully.

I have thought about it, I know best to say it. What I am saying is that the actions of Henry VIII point to exactly this- Theism, of all types, are very poor interpretations of how the world works. Anyone can see how easily science disproves this. And, what makes it worse, and the whole point of this, is that theism is dangerous and often causes very socially dangerous consequences for all human beings. Divorce being one of them, and the manner in which it became accepted is another one of them.

Too cerebral for you?

tinkbell13 said...

Here is a little further food for thought.

Have you ever thought how much, as a collective, that we have all suffered because of the individual need for religion and God? Have you ever taken a look at human history and understood how selfish religion is? Have you ever read the Bible and seen how twisted and hateful it is?

If you have, you would never be so bold as to encourage anyone to seek out Jesus Christ. I get called atheist because I refuse to engage in the most sociopathic belief system on this planet.