Thursday, November 19, 2009

“For the essence of sin is man substituting himself for God, while the essence of salvation is God substituting himself for man.”

John Stott

26 comments:

JD Curtis said...

If what you wish to prove with these figures is that when a few atheist dictator leaders get to kill folks, they manage to kill in very high numbers.Well im guessing thats most likely very true JD.

But in my opinion that does very little to prove atheism is as dangerous to this world as Christianity or faith/god beliefs are.


A few?! Heck, let's just name them all.

Afghanistan Nur Muhammad Taraki, Babrak Kamal
Albania Enver Hoxha
Angola Agostinho Neto, José Eduardo dos Santos
Bulgaria Vulko Chervenkov, Todor Zhivkov
Cambodia Pol Pot, Heng Samrin
China Mao Tse-Tung, Hua Guofeng, Deng Xiaoping,
Jiang Zemin, Hu Jintau
Cuba Fidel Castro
Czechoslovakia Klement Gottwald, Antonín Zápotocký,
Antonín Novotný, Gustáv Husák
East Germany Walter Ulbricht, Erich Honecker
Ethiopia Tafari Benti, Mengistu Haile Mariam
French Republic Jean-Marie Collot d’Herbois, Jacques Nicolas
Billaud-Varenne
Greece Nikolaos Zachariadis
Hungary Mátyás Rákosi
Laos Kaysone Phomvihane, Khamtai Siphandone
Mongolia Khorloogiin Choibalsan, Yumjaagiin
Tsedenbal
Mozambique Samora Machel
North Korea Kim il-Sung, Kim Jong-il
Poland Władysław Gomułka, Boleslaw Bierut
Romania Gheorghe Gheorghiu-Dej, Nicolae Ceausescu
Soviet Union Vladimir Lenin, Joseph Stalin, Nikita
Khrushchev, Leonid Brezhnev
Spain Manuel Azaña, Francisco Largo Caballero
Vietnam Ho Chi Minh, Le Duan, Truong Chinh,
Nguyen Van Linh, Do Muoi, Le Kha Phieu,
Nong Duc Manh
Yugoslavia Josip Broz Tito

Pardon me for going OT Mak but I couldnt let this BS just slide by. It would appear that more than a "few" of atheist dictators have committed mass slaughter.

Makarios said...

I don't mind. It’s interesting how when you hear the name of traditionally atheist run countries you also feel the synonymous ring of freedom (snerk).

Flute said...

I just checked twelve of these names randomly. All communists. All men.

Gandolf said...

J.D.Curtis->"Pardon me for going OT Mak but I couldnt let this BS just slide by. It would appear that more than a "few" of atheist dictators have committed mass slaughter."


Well done JD while almost giving yourself a hernia in the process, seems you nearly managed to rake enough together to make up a COMPANY .A company of dictators killing ,many of them maybe more likely simply because they were crazy tyrants.

However,even if we simply agree to the claim supposedly connecting them all to atheism .Its still not even a company fighting with "no belief" of a god fighting along side them.

J.D. Curtis,did you realize we have "whole armys" only to happy to fight, who almost "all believe" their "god also" fights along side them.These religious maniacs all feel its some type of blessing or honor to die fighting with god for godly righteousness.They are like living human minefeilds that surround our whole globe willing to blow up all around us,and shed blood for good of their gods will.

In my opinion the few tyrant dictators you supply, supposedly connected to be standing for whats atheism,doesnt pose anywhere near the danger that the disharmony of religion does.We have religious fanatics EVERYWHERE all over the place in this world willing to explode into a killing spree like a time bomb going off.And as far as they are concerned god is right there on the battle feild with them, and this life isnt such a primary thought for these faithfil folks. As in these mad folks mind, a blissful heaven awaits them in death.

How very very dangerious these VERY MANY crazy people ALL are! JD Curtis

http://nobeliefs.com/religiouswars.htm

tinkbell13 said...

Actually, Gandolf, all that he did was a compile a list of some religious zealots in positions of power, which further adds to the idea that religion is dangerous. If you run a check on some of these names, you will find Muslim, Catholic, etc. Off the top of my head, Castro was Catholic, Lenin was suspected as being Jewish (cause he spoke Yiddish) but he never confirmed his religion.

If I was so inclined, I would pick this apart, but I really do not care too. Dictatorships are complex processes, they involve examining the social, political, and international policies of a country to properly understand them. To just denote some of our most evil leaders as being atheist is absurd.

Hmmm, he is missing one big one- George W Bush. Christian. He was one of the worst tyrants this world has ever seen.

JD Curtis said...

If you run a check on some of these names, you will find Muslim, Catholic, etc. Off the top of my head, Castro was Catholic

Brilliant Tinka-dink. By your logic, Dawkins and Hitchens are now Anglicans. I'm stunned. Would you let them know that and keep us informed of their repective replies?

All communists. All men

All are atheists who are historically confirmed to have said that they are atheists, or that there is no God or that there are no gods.

Again, I'll raise the question, what if it were Lutherans or Catholics instead of your co-religionists?

JD Curtis said...

George W Bush. Christian. He was one of the worst tyrants this world has ever seen.

Did Bush murder (a minimum of) 20,000 of his own people like those on the above list? 10,000? 10? O?

Gorth Satana said...

Did Bush murder (a minimum of) 20,000 of his own people like those on the above list? 10,000? 10? O?

What definition of murder are you using? Some of the people on your list did nothing but ignore problems that caused deaths.

Gorth Satana said...

I just checked twelve of these names randomly. All communists. All men.

Flute, as far as I know, all the people on the list are Communists. (One of them called himself Socialist but enacted Communist law).
JD probably got the list from the video game designer/electronic musician called "Vox Day".

tinkbell13 said...

Nope- he did not murder his own.... Just in the Middle East. He became too busy killing his own people with unemployment and turning the US into a third world country... Where did your bailout money go?

Jay Dee- You tried dear, you really tried to look like you have some neurons firing between those ears. But, it is never so simple.

I am assuming you are American. I can tell by the way that you argue and reduce the world. Your list is not so simple and concrete as he would like to believe. I am Canadian, we are taught history much differently.

Maybe if you look at history written outside of your country, you would take a look at Castro, for example. He was raised Catholic, never publicly admitted to any belief system. He did not deny being an atheist, but he also met with the Pope and tried to improve relations with the Church. Nevertheless, if you are trying to suggest that atheists are as harmful to the world as religion- good luck with that. Sweetie, you really do need help.

tinkbell13 said...

@ Gorth- Or an encyclopedia somewhere... LOL. He thinks that it is that simple. As I said before, dictatorships are a complex problem. It involves looking many factors to understand. He would like us to believe that is all that there is to it. Too bad he cannot look at George Bush or the Bible with the same lens.

Flute said...

No, TB13, Gorth is right, the list is straight out of a book by Vox Day.

Remember everyone: ALL ATHEISTS ARE COMMUNISTS.

BTW, 1 out of 4 Irishmen were killed or exiled by Cromwell, numbers the Communists couldn't match.

JD Curtis said...

Right, it's from an appendix in The Irrational Atheist

ALL ATHEISTS ARE COMMUNISTS.

I did not claim this and it would seem, on the surface anyway, to be false. An inordinate amount of them seem to be Democrats though.

What definition of murder are you using?

Ordered the non-martial deaths of their own people. The most favored method seems to be starvation.

he (GWB) did not murder his own.... Just in the Middle East.

Substantiate this claim. Please show where George W. Bush ordered the (non-martial) deaths of anybody.

Maybe if you look at history written outside of your country, you would take a look at Castro, for example. He was raised Catholic, never publicly admitted to any belief system.

This was exactly as hard as typing the words [Fidel Castro atheist] into a common search engine and simply reading that which popped up.

"Castro is an atheist and has not been a practicing Roman Catholic since his childhood. Pope John XXIII excommunicated Castro on January 3, 1962 on the basis of a 1949 decree by Pope Pius XII forbidding Catholics from supporting communist governments. For Castro, who had previously renounced his Catholic faith, this was an event of very little consequence..." Link

"Castro was raised a Roman Catholic as a child but did not practice as one. In Oliver Stone's documentary Comandante, Castro states "I have never been a believer", and has total conviction that there is only one life." Link

Try again Tinky-feet.

JD Curtis said...

Makster, could I trouble you for a comment on my blog? When I posted today's entry (11/20) entitled "What if Jesus Had Never Been Born?" I thought it would be right up your alley. It's a reprint of a Washington Times article from 2001.

Flute said...

And Cromwell?

JD Curtis said...

exiled < murdered.....

Apples, oranges, etc.

JD Curtis said...

Was Cromwell Irish?

tinkbell13 said...

J Duh-

Here it is. Breakdown of Casualties caused by the US in Afghanistan since US occupation:

http://www.icasualties.org/OEF/

Here is a link clarifying your Castro bullshit. Nice try, when are people gonna realize that Wikipedia is not credible. Here is what the Associated Press printed at this link:

http://www.cubanet.org/CNews/y98/jan98/12e4.htm

EL COBRE, Cuba (AP) - Does President Fidel Castro, whose communist government long professed atheism, believe in God? He's not saying.

"Are you priests? Confessors?'' Castro replied when asked that question Sunday. "Those are my intimate affairs and I don't accept that you have me make that kind of public confession.''

Castro spoke after voting in parliamentary elections, in which he is a candidate, in this eastern Cuban city. Many of the questions he was asked dealt not with the election but the Jan. 21-25 visit by Pope John Paul II.

"I can say one thing,'' Castro said. "I respect those who believe and those who do not believe.

Oliver Stone has said many things sweetheart. Many of them not true.

JD Curtis said...

Here it is. Breakdown of Casualties caused by the US in Afghanistan since US occupation

Yes, and I'm still waiting for the link that shows that GWB ordered the non-martial deaths of anyone.

Please look at the statement from the Stone film. It clearly says that Castro stated that " "I have never been a believer", not Stone. There is a link to the you-tube clip on the Wiki link for that part of the movie.

Insofar as the statements from Castro that you quote, when does he say he is "Catholic"? Or doesnt he?

Where's the link........Tink?

JD Curtis said...

Just for you Tinkeroo. From Father Dwight Longenecker's masterpiece article entitled Why Abortion and the Iraq War Are Not Equivalent

"To be sure, there are also civilian casualties in war, and these -- especially the children -- are innocent of wrong doing. That they are injured or harmed is a terrible injustice, but is even this morally equivalent of abortion? I think not, because of several other considerations. Nearly 90,000 have been killed by fellow Iraqis, not by American soldiers. Along with this we must consider the intention of the American forces. While the American invasion of Iraq may have opened the door to the internecine atrocities, the Americans never intended for civilians to be killed, and have made huge sacrifices to eliminate the terrorists and end the atrocities and anarchy by bringing law and order."

Flute said...

"exiled < murdered"

Most of the people on your list did their "murdering" by exiling people causing starvation.

"Was Cromwell Irish?"
Was Ireland part of the U.K.?

Flute said...

"Yes, and I'm still waiting for the link that shows that GWB ordered the non-martial deaths of anyone."

How about a link for each of the names on your list that show they ordered the non-martial deaths of the numbers you (Or more correctly Vox) claim.

tinkbell13 said...

Please look at the statement from the Stone film. It clearly says that Castro stated that " "I have never been a believer", not Stone. There is a link to the you-tube clip on the Wiki link for that part of the movie.

I do not know what world you live in, but Oliver Stone is no historical authority. Sorry sweetie, I will not even entertain that one. Oliver Stone also directed W, which will lead me to your next level of stupidity-

Yes, and I'm still waiting for the link that shows that GWB ordered the non-martial deaths of anyone.

Yes, and I'm still waiting for the link that shows that GWB ordered the non-martial deaths of anyone.

Since you seem to think that Oliver Stone is such a legitimate authority, see for yourself what he has to say about George W. Bush. There is what you are looking for. You moron, the link from the associated press clearly shows how AMBIVALENT he was about his personal faith, which is what I have said all along.

What crap are you trying to slobber out about abortion?

Gandolf said...

JDs- article ->"In contrast, the abortionist or one who procures an abortion sets out to kill as the first intention. They may have an ulterior motive that seems good, but the primary intention of their action is to take an innocent life. Politicians who support abortion therefore enable those who wish to kill innocent and defenseless children. Even if the particular war is unjust, the soldiers and politicians who instigated the war were doing so (even if in a debased way) not to promote killing, but to promote an ultimate goal of justice and peace."

What utter religiously biased rubbish.

The "first intention" is to kill?,
oh yeah sure.. women just love having abortions because its just such a real extremely fun way to go on a killing spree.There first intention is alway to hurry up and get pregnant so they can intentionally kill another of their own babies .... These religious people really know how to use logic and common sense hmmmmm??

What utter bollocks!!. What a sad feeble pitiful attempt to try equalizing it to war.

Quite often the primary intention is actually for some good reasons too JD Curtis.In this world sadly matters of life are not always just simply so black and white.Judgements made on any moral grounds need to take all angles of what matters into account,whats best cannot simply rely always on emotion lest it wrongfully be the (instigator) of much more long term pain than really need be suffered.

In my opinion the person who who wrote that article, is a real right wally !! to try and compare abortion with warfare.What a complete twat

Women who are involved in abortion often to save more longer term suffering just cannot be honestly compared, with wars with people who happily and quite willingly kill even believing god is at their side and also wants the enemy killed or subdued.

Abortion are never about manipulating or gaining control or indoctrination of anothers ideology.Its not about any of that at all.

How disgustingly dishonest that somebody try to even suggest it.

War is though!, thats for very sure.Behind the undercurrents of war it is most often very much all about oppression and manipulation and control and religion is most always somewhere there right in amongst it busy trying to niggle away and indoctrinate all their particular choice of ideologys.

And guess what JD, even your friend Jesus knew it,he knew religion was here to cause disharmony and wars on earth like a sword.People all saw it so very very easily even way back in them old days.

Jesus he wasnt silly and knew it was simply totally pointless!,forever beating around the bush trying to keep denying what was obviously the very obvious.

tinkbell13 said...

@ Gandolf- The whole thing is utterly stoopid, and I will not engage that bullshit anymore. He makes no sense.

J Duh is saying that George W Bush is not responsible for all of the deaths that his troops have caused for his country because there is no evidence that he directly and personally gave the orders for each murder. Following that piece of irrational, nonsensical, and convoluted logic.

We can easily say that, if that is true, then all of those people on the list are not murderers either.
Where is the proof that they gave the order? They are not personally responsible if there is no evidence.... We may have found a revolutionary way of examining politics and military tactics. We could even be pioneers here and go so far as to suggest that this awesome logic can be applied to all atrocities within the human race.

Gandolf said...

tinkbell13 said... "@ Gandolf- The whole thing is utterly stoopid"

Tinkbell when their own son of god will freely admit the divisive nature and problems god belief poses,and its all even written there right within the book they all read.Along with MEGA stories of wrath and wars and the ruthless killings of thousands upon thousands of humans etc,often being depicted in a sense of such glorious victory.

You would think they would be able to see the link thats so very obvious.And i really think many do!!! actually see it.But just find it such a very hard matter to face up to.

Back in the time when the bible was written,hell people were still evolving on from stoning and raping and scrificing each other...What with religion being "well known" to often be the instigator of division and conflict and war etc,well it wasnt really thought anything so (very abnormal).So much so was it thought quite a normal thing, that even Jesus in the book also freely admits it is so.

But we are in a different timezone now where its become so much more obvious that devision and conflict and war really is a very big nasty dangerous problem that cannot simply be dismissed as quite normal anymore.

Morals have evolved on! through our experiencing all the mega mayhem and pain and killings of war to where now worldwide people brains cannot any longer simply dismiss this divise problem, as still being what was once thought quite normal and even ok and even of glory.

It has (now)started to even endanger us ALL to continue to simply do so,anything could happen now that man can destroy the world with the might of available armory.

So Tinkbell thats the difference between jesus who could simply lay claim to the nature that was always known to be part and parcel of faith and following god,and the christians today who will try to deny it anyway they can at all costs....Who will use word games to try and confuse matters and revert to trying to disconnect "responsibility for all of the deaths " anyway possible if possible!! ..Shift the goal posts

But it doesnt matter. Deep down many/most christians really know whats really the truth.

When at Fort Hood the cry in Arabic, "God is great," as he gunned down innocents,even many/most christians who are being honest with themselves know its faith and culture and religious belief in gods doing the niggling behind the scenes.

When the christian return cry is "This Christian nation is at war with radical Islam",many/most religious folks know whats really going down here.... Its based on the same old same old, my gods "the" right god type bullcrap when it gets right back down to the nitty gritty of matters.

When George Bush specially had prayer meetings just prior to declaring war in Iraq,"the god" had been addressed and through "George Bush sactioned" all deaths.

When Palestinians and Israeli`s fight and kill each other over sacred ground, most HONEST faithful folk worldwide know whats really going down.

They just have more trouble facing it so honestly these days thats all.Its just become hard to do these days. if you still wish to also continue feeling god belief is very moral.