Thursday, November 19, 2009

Atheists demand their rights

Nothing but curious amusement strikes me when I hear once again of atheists demanding to pay the full price of their own sins. Goofs like Daniel Dennett and Christopher Hitchens are offended by the unfairness of being able to off-load the guilt that is clearly theirs, onto an innocent scape-goat - Jesus.

Of course, as atheists, these men and others like them are denied the deeper and profound meaning as Christ confronts what we cannot confront and endures on our behalf what we cannot endure. None of us, and this is true to several orders of magnitude for atheists can comprehend the depths of our sin because we cannot bear the truth. The spiritual darkness in which we live is such that the light of God’s righteousness is painfully blinding. That is why Jesus did what He did on our behalf.

When atheists look at this event they don’t see the offer of a lifetime -

“Accept My love and you’ll receive eternity in Paradise.”

Atheists look at this and because their minds are already determined to reject God and His forgiveness and His freedom they can only hear,

“Accept my love or burn in hell.”

Here is what makes the atheist position seem so childlike in it’s understanding of Jesus’ atoning sacrifice, and in it’s reaction to that understanding. First, the atheist, full of bluff and bluster rants at the offer of forgiveness. “We are the ones who have committed the crime and we are the ones who should suffer the consequences.” Then, when God responds with a sorrowful, “Then you shall indeed bear the cost of your sins,” the atheist roars back at how monstrous a thing is that proposition.

Atheists seem a wee bit out of the loop on this count. You see this isn’t a case of Jesus doing for us what we should be doing ourselves. Jesus is in fact doing for us what we CANNOT do for ourselves. We have destroyed a relationship that can only be healed by the other partner in the relationship. It’s a bit like a five year old breaking a window and the atheist next door saying, “Well, you’ve broken it. Now it’s up to you to fix it.” Yes the child broke it but it’s the Father who will have to bear the cost of fixing it for the child holds no such ability or resources on h/her own.

11 comments:

tinkbell13 said...

Back at it.
And, you may have coined one of my favorite simplistic, generalized, stupid, intellectually lazy, boring, easily dichotomous, critical generalizations ever on this blog.

When atheists look at this event they don’t see the offer of a lifetime -

Assumption-
An assumption is a proposition that is taken for granted, as if it were true based upon presupposition without preponderance of the facts.

So, once again, you have turned on your intellectual hose that feeds you all of the thoughts and conclusions to every atheist on this planet, and you can comfortably assume that this is what we do not see. Come on, if you wanna argue content to validate your beliefs, you gotta stop being so sloppy. I actually thought that we were getting somewhere.

tinkbell13 said...

Here is what makes the atheist position seem so childlike in it’s understanding of Jesus’ atoning sacrifice, and in it’s reaction to that understanding. First, the atheist, full of bluff and bluster rants at the offer of forgiveness. “We are the ones who have committed the crime and we are the ones who should suffer the consequences.” Then, when God responds with a sorrowful, “Then you shall indeed bear the cost of your sins,” the atheist roars back at how monstrous a thing is that proposition.

Here is what is childish- your rhetorical position.

Here is an excerpt from a study on the developmental maturity of children. I think that the part about egocentric and absolutism applies to the use of generalization.

A similar progression in reasoning about political institutions has been identified. Joseph Adelson and Robert O'Neil asked participants to imagine that a large group of disgruntled people decided to move to a deserted island to establish a new government. They were then questioned about the pros and cons of various social rules, authority structures, and political processes. Young children thought about political processes in concrete, egocentric, absolutist terms. They focused on specific, present-oriented activities and self-serving issues. For example, they were willing to grant authorities unrestricted, unilateral power to ensure nothing went wrong. Adolescents were more likely to shift away from a concrete, authoritarian stance; some expressed concern about the rights of individuals as well as the collective welfare. They were more idealistic and they reasoned in a relativistic manner, attempting to envision possibilities and scenarios that might occur in the future. For instance, they considered the need to limit governmental powers because of the possibility that some leaders might become capricious or corrupt.

Read more: Social Cognition - Developmental Changes In Social-cognitive Reasoning, Conclusion - Reasoning within Different Social Domains http://social.jrank.org/pages/598/Social-Cognition.html#ixzz0XKJJ8lXv

Makarios said...

TB, like the front of a huge Saharan sand storm, eternity is bearing down on you and there you sit, worried about whether I’m speaking properly. The Titanic has its ass end in the air and you’re upset that the silverware won’t stay on the tables. A day of accounting is coming and you’re pointing to the wrong that the Church has done.

TB, you are not going to have to give an account for what other people have done wrong. You are going to be held accountable for rejecting Jesus’ offer of salvation.

Priorities TB. Priorities

tinkbell13 said...

Your priorities are clearly different than mine, in case you had not noticed. I share none of those fears. Learn to argue. If you throw it up there, learn to articulate it, learn to express it. You leave it open to people like me, and people like me will label it for what it is.

I could not care less about what you are talking about. Why do you care about my "salvation" anyways? Is that the only argument that you have against your childish rhetoric? Too bad.

Makarios said...

"Why do you care about my "salvation" anyways?"

Because there is no one else on earth like you. You were created in God’s image with purpose and dignity and worth. I don’t want anyone to miss out on what Jesus has to offer, both here on earth and in the next stage of life.

TB there is much, much more to life than what meets the eye. The greatest Love in the universe is just a heartbeat away and it’s being offered to you free of charge. Grab it. Take hold of it and make it yours. Why wouldn’t I want you to have it? How coud I not want you to have that?

Chris Mackey said...

offended by... innocent scape-goat

Would you think it's right to send someone to the electric chair because of a crime you committed?

Atheists ... can only hear, “Accept my love or burn in hell.

That would be me. The Christian religion is obviously man-made but we can show those who are still stuck in it - how monstrous it would be if it were true.
The monster in the sky who DEMANDS love and has built a torture chamber for those who don't do what he wants.

It’s a bit like a five year old who couldn't help but break a window and YHWH next door saying, “Well, you’ve broken it. Now do what I want or I'll torture you forever in a torture chamber I built.”

Add to this, a fair number of Christians think YHWH chooses who goes to Heaven and who YHWH casts into Hell. Which is like a million five years olds breaking windows and YHWH next door saying "I choose to torture 75% of you. The rest can play in my rumpus room!"

If YHWH existed, he would be the most evil creature in the universe.

Gandolf said...

Mak while i understand you mean well,you overlook many things while suggesting non believers should simply accept the christian belief.

Things like how much damage these mythical beliefs have caused...Things like its even written belief of this Jesus will split and divide society.Things like his word wasnt truthful or honest fact,many many peoples lives have come and gone, and still Jesus makes a complete lie out of his suggestion of returning.

You do generalize and make it all sound and seem simply wrong that non believers dont have faith.Whether you mean to or not, you are wrongfully judging non believers reasons for not having faith,and in doing so demean the depth of thought many of them use.You are quick to judge non believers as overlooking matters,but in reality maybe you are the one guilty of overlooking some very very important factors.

While you judge us non believers as simply being silly for not believing,you forget many of us non believers are the ones who PAY!! dayly for mans silly choice to believe these ancient myths..... Thats right Mak ... My family and many other peoples families were split and divided by religion and believers of god/s thanks to the kindness and thoughtfulness of past generations of faithful folk who like you chose and decided to carry these ancient barbaric beliefs onward.

Yet on top of that here you are demeaning and judging us as simply being unthoughtful ... Judging that we simply dont know whats good for us ... Judging that you think its because we want to choose whats evil.

Somehow i dont think you realize how your judgment of us being this way,could be felt a bit demeaning ...We are basically being judged as being those supposedly not giving matters enough thought,by those who maybe are actually being the ones that really dont think so deeply about matters.

You yourself might even wonder why gandolf would bother spending his time discussing matters of faith on blogs.

You would never think to consider gandolf maybe wishes folk long ago had been more willing to spend a bit more time trying to talk sense to folks of faith... So that maybe gandolf didnt need to be cursed with being born to mad crazy folks of faith who believed stupid old faith books of gods and jesus people .. that then split and divided and wasted the only life there really was on offer for people.

You dont really give this stuff im now talking about all that much thought really do you mak? .... You are happy! so who gives to hoots if your belief is good for society in general over all or not ..hmmm??? .... Who cares if the belief you blissfully bath in ...in years to come ends up causing division and pain and maybe ever death by suicide for some other person ..hmmm?? ..As long as you feel good about faith... then thats all that ever matters the most.

You dont consider this stuff so much, do you Mak ?

And yet here you tell us we non believers are supposedly the ones "not thinking" enough about matters.

Dont take this the wrong way Mak ... Its not meant to be anything personal ..Putting my dislike of your faith aside ,as a person i can tell you have some very good qualities and in general as a person i have no problems with anything about you.

Makarios said...

Gandhi, there isn’t a square metre of ground that hasn’t been fought over and bled over for a hundred different reasons, religion being just one of them. It’s your human nature and my human nature that is the cause of all the bloodshed, not some cause or belief system. It is our human nature that is deeply flawed and it is our human nature that has caused an irreparable shattering of our relationship between us and our Creator. That, I believe, is what needs to be our main concern. Everything else is secondary. My fear is that you’re going to spend your whole life focussed on the secondary and thereby completely miss the primary. It’s like a little boy who skinned his knee while crossing the train tracks. And there he sits, in the middle of the tracks, nursing his knees and complaining about how awful this day has been while the commuter train is within seconds of ending all of his days.

I'm sorry that you got born into a crazy family. That does not absolve you of taking care of today’s business.

Gandolf said...

Thanks for the reply Mak...Your judgment would maybe be fine and even a little honest, if you actually knew anything much more about me other than i happen to post on your blog.

I think you have things slightly wrong Mak ,this life comes first so surely common sense even tells us it must be thought the primary since primary is what refers to that what comes first.

And i focused not to bad on my primary life really, even with the belief of gods cursing things ive still survived and many parts of life have been very good.

But i do realize very well now much within christianity has never really been so very concerned about matters of need for some factual evidence,after all a book of lie is bound to breed folks who dont mind a few fibs here and there and maybe false judgments and generalizations not thought such a biggy.

But if you did know me personally, and knew what i have actually mangaged to achieve in life even with certain religious cursed odds against it.I doubt you could be honest while suggesting the claim quote -> "there he sits, in the middle of the tracks, nursing his knees and complaining about how awful this day has been while the commuter train is within seconds of ending all of his days."

Many people who HONESTLY know me a little Mak,would find the judgment simply ludicrous.

No Mak the reason im here is as stated!.Im only doing what im doing because i think its really for a very good cause.A cause that offers the best hope humans have for humanity, and holds promise a much better future.And im here because i really wish other humans years before i was even born, had been able to better suceed in helping change the thoughts of delueded faithful folk cursed with religious cancer born from prehistoric superstition of god beliefs.

So like i said Mak it almost feels like im working for a very charatible cause.Its very very much total altruism that drives it Mak !!,you were not under some illusion i was thinking my help in this cause was to benefit me in some way were you?..Remember any change i can help make in this cause Mak,doesnt allow me to relive my life again in any way whatsoever.It wont change the fact at all that my kids missed out on my mother as a grandma.

Its all for the hope and possibilities of future generations.

Mak-> "I'm sorry that you got born into a crazy family. That does not absolve you of taking care of today’s business."

Ohhh yeah i can be a very dedicated person.What business i think there is that needs really some taking care of,im the type thats ready to really get rock and rollin with it.

Im honestly sorry too! that you been very sick lately Mak,but much about lifes very random isnt it .Shit happens.

I didnt hope you would get very sick,and i know you didnt personally hope that human god beliefs would be a curse for anybody either.

Its just a lot about luck, more bits of the random evolving life we live in.

Gandolf said...

Mak-> "It’s your human nature and my human nature that is the cause of all the bloodshed, not some cause or belief system"

No Mak ...Do you realize thats like suggesting my religious family are heartless folk who supposedly purposly went out of their way to translate the bible a certain way they did,so they could cause their own flesh and blood!, some bloodshed.

Sure its what your bible would have you and other indoctrinated people believe,but its very very dishonest and totally unfactual....Whats more its all based on the deceit of men who wrote faith books.

No Mak this is the very reason why i like trying to always keep things simple and honest when im debating,because its only when you try making excuses you start needing to get a little dishonest and start making lots and lots of assertions and generalizations..When we want a certain story to HOPEFULLY fit ...Thats when it gets hard.

Its not likely to be "human nature" at all Mak,humans dont naturally disregard and heartlessly dispose of their family so often ...How could you even think such a thing? ..is it your bible suggests it??

Yes your need of the god belief hopefully being true, allows you to simply judge and assert my family were most likely just simply heartless type people ...Happy to misrepresent the bible and then cause "bloodshed" of their own flesh and blood.

See how the real logic disappears when we try "making" a god belief book writing "simply fit" the realities by simple choice of forgetting real logic common sense realities.

Mak the truth is my family are normal humans,but god beliefs in the bible indoctrinated them into nasty attitudes.Whether the bible were wrongly translated is only a very poor excuse!!, and all about a argument from the angle of special pleading.

tinkbell13 said...

Mak- I feel that you are overlooking many things here.

First of all, I am not here to be brought to JC. I have long abandoned any type of remote belief in God, JC, or any other thing. I do believe that you are saying things meaning well, but trust me, I have a good life. I wake up everyday grateful for my life, and I try to give back to my community whatever way I can.

I am right, as is Gandolf. You tell us that you want us to understand a higher love, yet you cannot speak to us as individuals and generalize about what we personally believe and value. Which, is not a very loving action to your fellow human beings. You are missing the point. I am getting harsher and harsher about how I say it. Ultimately, you need to accept who and what we are.You need to understand that we have seen your offer of a lifetime and passed for a number of reasons.

I can recommend a good book to you. It may open your eyes a little to the different interpretations of Christianity out there. It is called The Pagan Christ by Tom Harpur. I have been reading it, and I am quite impressed with the research that went into it.