Saturday, November 21, 2009

That Didn’t Happen

Or as atheists would say, “Create your own reality.” Whether Stalin or Pol Pot or leaders in present day China, atheists are masters of reinventing themselves and history itself. Here’s an example. Do you remember something called the Tiananmen Square Massacre? If you do, chances are you don’t live in China. Like modern atheists in the West, atheists in China’s government don’t like admitting guilt either. In fact, the official line is that Tiananmen Square never happened.

Just the same, atheists in the west just change reality to suit their desires and opinions. Examples:

Divorce is good
Adultery is good
Porn is good
Living common law is good
Pride is good
Selective / relative morality is good

Having thus reinvented themselves atheists say, “See? I don’t need God in order to be a good person.”

“Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.” Isaiah 5:20

20 comments:

tinkbell13 said...

Laziness (also called indolence) is a disinclination to activity or exertion despite having the ability to do so. It is often used as a pejorative. Chronic laziness may be an underlying psychological condition.

And, maybe to put this in terms that you understand-

One of the seven deadly sins in Christian thought is sloth, which is often defined as spiritual and/or physical apathy or laziness. Sloth is recommended against in the Letter to the Hebrews (Hebrews 6:12), and associated with wickedness in one of the parables of Jesus in the Gospel of Matthew (Matthew 25:26). In the Wisdom books of Proverbs and Ecclesiastes, it is stated that laziness can lead to poverty (Proverbs 10:4, Ecclesiastes 10:18).
[edit]

tinkbell13 said...

So, we will dismantle your overgeneralized argument one simplistic assumption at a time.
You said-

Just the same, atheists in the west just change reality to suit their desires and opinions. Examples:

Porn is good

Actually, had you researched, you would note that most Christian publications are concerned about the findings of pornography within Christian households. Here is something for you to read;

A Barna Research Group study released in November 2003 found four out of five born-again Christians believe pornography to be morally unacceptable. The Bible likens lust to adultery and fornication, both expressly forbidden. Nevertheless, Mr. Burgin’s disaster is far from unique:

· A 2003 survey from Internet Filter Review reported that 47 percent of Christians admit pornography is a major problem in their homes.

· An internet survey conducted by Rick Warren of Saddleback Church in 2002 found 30 percent of 6,000 pastors had viewed internet porn in the last 30 days.

· A Christianity Today Leadership Survey in 2001 reported 37 percent of pastors have viewed internet porn.

· Family Safe Media reports 53 percent of men belonging to the Christian organization Promise Keepers visit porn sites every week.

· One in seven calls to Focus on the Family’s Pastoral Care Hotline is related to internet pornography.

· Today’s Christian Woman in 2003 found that one in six women, including Christians, struggles with pornography addiction.

Here is the link if you are interested-

http://www.worldmag.com/articles/10555

tinkbell13 said...

To continue-

I have pointed out to your laziness at the start of this. Despite being reminded all of the time that you overgeneralize and have no intellectual credibility to the claims you make, I now have to repeat something that I posted earlier. You asserted that nonbelievers are enabling divorce. I posted a stat showing you that the highest rate of divorce right now is among Christians, which you acknowledged, but have now made the same error.

11% of the adult population is currently divorced.
bullet 25% of adults have had at least one divorce during their lifetime.
bullet Divorce rates among conservative Christians were significantly higher than for other faith groups, and much higher than Atheists and Agnostics experience.

George Barna, president and founder of Barna Research Group, commented:

"While it may be alarming to discover that born again Christians are more likely than others to experience a divorce, that pattern has been in place for quite some time. Even more disturbing, perhaps, is that when those individuals experience a divorce many of them feel their community of faith provides rejection rather than support and healing. But the research also raises questions regarding the effectiveness of how churches minister to families. The ultimate responsibility for a marriage belongs to the husband and wife, but the high incidence of divorce within the Christian community challenges the idea that churches provide truly practical and life-changing support for marriages."



Here is a link so that you can refresh your facts; Once again, from the Center of Religious Freedom in Ontario;
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_dira.htm

tinkbell13 said...

Whether Stalin or Pol Pot or leaders in present day China, atheists are masters of reinventing themselves and history itself. Here’s an example. Do you remember something called the Tiananmen Square Massacre? If you do, chances are you don’t live in China. Like modern atheists in the West, atheists in China’s government don’t like admitting guilt either. In fact, the official line is that Tiananmen Square never happened.

Actually, as you can see, you are clearly good at ignoring the facts. Let us look at Tinanmen Square, shall we? I pulled this from Wikipedia, which I hate doing, but it is a nice summary of the events that occured.

The Tiananmen Square protests of 1989, referred to in most of the world as the Tiananmen Square massacre and in the People's Republic of China (PRC) as the June Fourth Incident (officially to avoid confusion with two prior Tiananmen Square protests), were a series of demonstrations in and near Tiananmen Square in Beijing in the PRC beginning on 14 April. Led mainly by students and intellectuals, the protests occurred in a year that saw the collapse of a number of communist governments around the world.

The protests were sparked by the death of a pro-democracy and anti-corruption official, Hu Yaobang, whom protesters wanted to mourn. By the eve of Hu's funeral, 1,000,000 people had gathered at Tiananmen square.[citation needed] The protests lacked a unified cause or leadership; participants included disillusioned Communist Party of China members and Trotskyists as well as free market reformers, who were generally against the government's authoritarianism and voiced calls for economic change[1][2] and democratic reform[2] within the structure of the government. The demonstrations centered on Tiananmen Square, in Beijing, but large-scale protests also occurred in cities throughout China, including Shanghai, which remained peaceful throughout the protests.

So, how you tied this into atheism is beyond me. Do you know why you generalize about us, and whine about our moral relativism? Because we can argue and understand the facts. You cannot tie together an argument that cannot be torn apart because you lazily generalize.

tinkbell13 said...

If you are suggesting that, atheist governments create violence, which is maybe what you are saying with China, I would like you to consider something. First, they are many native communities that are secular, and are not violent at all. They practice their own religious practices, self government, and cultural beliefs. Here is a link where you can get an idea of this-

http://www.greatdreams.com/native.htm

So, are they all wrong, are they all atheists too?

Tristan Vick said...

If all the websites on the Internet all dissipated except for one, it would be the one which read "bring back the porn."

And the porn quote is proof that your ethical views are a social construct.

Never mind that in modern society the advent of pornography lowers rape and crimes against women by 63%. The facts of the greater good mean nothing to you if you believe that good and evil are absolutes, predicated on the belief in a highly obnoxious and capricious deity found in fragmented bits of religious folklore.

If you ask me, is this good enough to base your notions of morality on, namely your faith, then you are proving to yourself that you are indeed guided by the cultural opinions of Christian ecumenical tradition, and this allows you to moralize like you do.

Even so, I think the joke is on you, since you're doing the same thing non-believers do when they practice moral relativism.

feeno said...

T Vick

How about we don't look at porn or rape anybody?

Peace, feeno

Makarios said...

TB how is it that you make the jump from: I do A therefore I must believe that A is good? Does that actually make sense in atheist world?
==============

"Never mind that in modern society the advent of pornography lowers rape and crimes against women by 63%."

What's your source? If I ever meet one person who's been found guilty of sexual assault who hasn't been addicted to porn, I'll believe you.

Flute said...

If I ever meet one person who's been found guilty of sexual assault who hasn't been addicted to porn, I'll believe you.

Correlation does not imply causation.

The more firemen fighting a fire, the bigger the fire is going to be.
Therefore firemen cause fire
.

Makarios said...

I've always said atheists are dull of mind and slow of thought. I've never seen a better indication than your comment. It's a good line. Just use it where it fits.

Gorth Satana said...

I've always said atheists are dull of mind and slow of thought. I've never seen a better indication than your comment.

So you think correlation does imply causation?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation

Makarios said...

In this case? Absolutely.

tinkbell13 said...

Actually Mak- I did not make any such comment about pornography and rape, but I do have a quote for you;

"Out of convicted rapists, 57% admitted to reading
pornography. 95% admitted to reading the Bible."
US Federal Bureau of Prisons.

I like how you refer to us as being dull of mind. I wrote, in a very detailed way that you are intellectually lazy with inept critical arguments. You do not have the nerve to address them, and just go for the lowest common factor by insulting us. I must say, blogging has taught me to be prepared for what comes my way next year. I really have learned how easily people ignore the facts.

tinkbell13 said...

No mention of how easily you threw in China other than for typing the words with no relation to any argument. No mention of how concerned Christian media is about pornography viewership among Christians, which was sourced. No mention of how easily you threw around that atheism promotes acceptance of divorce when I provided stats that would indicate otherwise.

HOW DARE YOU DEMAND A SOURCE FROM ME.... YOU HAVE NEVER SOURCED ANYTHING. You would not even know how to construct an argument articulating anything other than weak assumptions which are so easily dismantled.

Makarios said...

Atheists read the Bible too. So what?

"divorce when I provided stats that would indicate otherwise."

Are you saying that you agree that divorce is wrong?

tinkbell13 said...

Read, that is not what I am saying.

tinkbell13 said...

You do not get the pleasure of understanding what I do or do not agree with unless you own the bullshit in your arguments. Simple as that.

Tristan Vick said...

Makarios-

My research in Pornography is case specific. It has to do with some research on "Male Dominion in Patriarchal Societies" and is related to my interest in Japanese Women's feminist movement, in which I wrote my thesis paper for my degree in Japanese Women's History.

Japan reflects one of the modern societies in which "sex culture" has been a subculture for a long time, at least 3,000 years longer than Western societies, and it can give interesting insights into the Japanese culture.

Japan, also, happened to be one of the few modern societies to completely ban pornography after is was already a lucrative establishment. But the violent crimes against women became so high that the government was forced to institute a restricted and regulated porn industry.

The statistic I quote actually comes from:

"Pornography, Rape and Sex Crimes in Japan" done by Diamond and Uchiyama at the University of Hawaii.

But Uchiyama also does another case study in which he compares sex related industries in different cultures and countries.

Japan is an overall peaceful society, so it's interesting to note the statistics. It would be interesting to see how American's would react is their 14 Billion dollar a year porn industry was stripped from them. Although, that might be too dangerous of an experiment worth trying, seeing as what happened in Japan during the 70's.

Feeno-

Only in a perfect world. And first organized religion would have to disappear almost completely, as it is by far the largest repeat offender against women's rights of any institution on this planet.

And that's a brute fact so weighted down by evidence that I can't feel enraged by the hypocrisy of those Christians, Muslims, and Jews who deny their faith is blameless when it comes to the oppression of women. Moral religions would not behave in this way if they were indeed moral. And you can't fault the human being either, since it is not a one off historical occurrence, it's a repeated historical trend, a pattern, and in some cases a (shameful) tradition. Many of which still continue today! And that's not okay.

You might want to label it as sin, but then that places the burden of explaining why it is less frequent outside of mainstream religion?

Feeno, your heart is in the right place, but in order to say, "let's not watch porn..." with a straight face, we must first agree to start treating our women better, period.

And as far as I can tell, most monotheism is not about women's suffrage, but rather, women's suffering.

The reason for this is obvious: authoritarian ruler-ship which esteems the worth and value of a male over the female. As long as religion abides by a totalitarian system of hierarchy, no believer even has the right to say their religion does more for women when all is considered. I'll flip out if anyone even dares try it. I personally male you 150 books on the subject, and then bill you for them, and I'll make you pay for the shipping an handling too! It's probably better not to get me started... anyway, now I have to go take a deep breath and count back from 100.

tinkbell13 said...

@ Gandolf-

Interesting stuff, especially in Japan. There has been much debate about legalizing, and sectioning off, a regulated area for the sex industry in Canada. However, it has never happened.

I like how porn is framed as a moral question. This is where organized religion becomes so childish. Everything is placed in this simplistic framework "Is it right, is it wrong?' So, the debate exists only in these questions.

And, the interesting thing is that Christians are the biggest consumers of Internet Porn in North America, which Mak ignores. We should be asking them, not them asking us. Denial really is an extraordinary process.

Makarios said...

TB you just don’t get it do you? I even wrote a post on this. We become Christians, in part BECAUSE our eyes have been opened to our sinfulness.

That’s why I asked, “Is it possible that atheists really are better people than Christians.”

That’s why I said, “I doubt that an atheist could be me and say, “I don’t need God to be a good person.”

That’s why I said, I’m not a better person than any given atheist. I’m just a better person than I was before Jesus came into my life.

You try to sound so shocked when you hear of Christians using porn or what not. We’re accused of being hypocrites when we do wrong, yet we Christians are the ones who admit that we do wrong. We are the ones who admit that we are hypocrites, bigots, angry, liars, cheats, adulterers and on and on.

It’s atheists who are self-righteous - i.e., believing that you possess righteousness in and of yourselves. It’s atheists who try to say they’re good people. Christians admit that we have no righteousness apart from what is given to us from God based upon our faith in what Jesus did on the cross.

If you aren't addicted to porn or anything else, I suggest that you be grateful rather than judgemental.