Saturday, January 2, 2010

If you’ve heard one atheist . . .

Ginx said: “There's no reason for him [Jesus] to have been dead after such a short time,”

He was saying that, because they didn’t break Jesus legs while He hung on the cross, He probably didn’t die; that in fact He was nursed back to health.

The verse which Ginx partially quotes is John 19:33. Ginx partially quotes that verse because if he used the whole verse it would be obvious that the REASON the guards didn’t break Jesus legs is because Jesus was already dead. He'd been run through with a spear and serum and red blood cells gushed out from the chest cavity. No one need doubt the death of Jesus - I mean, other than atheist and Islamic fundamentalists whose very belief system depends on Jesus NOT dying on the cross and NOT rising from the dead

The historical facts of Jesus life, death and resurrection, facts that require an answer are:
. The tomb was empty - why?
. The dramatic change in the character of the disciples - why?
. The conversions of the sceptic James (Jesus’ own brother) - why?
. The conversion of the sceptic Paul (a persecutor of Christians)- why?
. The dramatic rise of the Christian Church - why?

All of these CAN be answered with one point - The death and physical resurrection of Jesus.

I find it hard to believe that anyone can be so ignorant as to believe that Jesus came down from the cross alive. However, yet another atheist has made this claim in His defense of the proposition that the reason the tomb was empty is because, well, Jesus really wasn’t dead. Have you ever noticed how often atheists and Muslims agree on things? It’s a little unnerving. Anyhow, when I say Jesus most certainly was dead, atheists say, “Where the evidence?” When I give them evidence, do you know what happens? The evidence is so overwhelmingly in favour of Jesus dying that atheists change the subject to some song and dance about how gruesome the evidence is and "Why revel in "bloody porn"." Atheists, if you've heard one you've heard them all.

Drawing from eyewitness accounts, and from what we know of Roman execution, and the Jewish / Roman interaction, Physician Truman Davis writes the following about Jesus’ death:

The whip the Roman soldiers use on Jesus has small iron balls and sharp pieces of sheep bones tied to it. Jesus is stripped of his clothing, and his hands are tied to an upright post. His back, buttocks, and legs are whipped either by one soldier or by two who alternate positions. The soldiers taunt their victim. As they repeatedly strike Jesus’ back with full force, the iron balls cause deep contusions, and the sheep bones cut into the skin and tissues. As the whipping continues, the lacerations tear into the underlying skeletal muscles and produce quivering ribbons of bleeding flesh. Most often the victim's bowels were laid bare. Pain and blood loss set the stage for circulatory shock.

When it is determined by the centurion in charge that Jesus is near death, the beating is finally stopped. The half-fainting Jesus is then untied and allowed to slump to the stone pavement, wet with his own blood. The Roman soldiers see a great joke in this provincial Jew claiming to be a king. They throw a robe across his shoulders and place a stick in his hand for a scepter. They still need a crown to make their travesty complete. A small bundle of flexible branches covered with long thorns are plaited into the shape of a crown, and this is pressed into his scalp. Again there is copious bleeding (the scalp being one of the most vascular areas of the body). After mocking him and striking him across the face until he is unrecognisable to those who know him, the soldiers take the stick from his hand and strike him across the head, driving the thorns deeper into his scalp.
Finally, when they tire of their sadistic sport, the robe is torn from his back. The robe had already become adherent to the clots of blood and serum in the wounds, and its removal - just as in the careless removal of a surgical bandage - causes excruciating pain, is almost as though he were being whipped again. The wounds again begin to bleed. In deference to Jewish custom, the Romans return his garments. The heavy horizontal beam of the cross is tied across his shoulders, and the procession of the condemned Christ, two thieves, and the execution party walk along the Via Dolorosa. In spite of his efforts to walk erect, the weight of the heavy wooden beam, together with the shock produced by copious blood loss, is too much. He stumbles and falls. The rough wood of the beam gouges into the lacerated skin and muscles of the shoulders. He tries to rise, but human muscles have been pushed beyond their endurance. The centurion, anxious to get on with the crucifixion, select a stalwart North African onlooker, Simon of Cyrene, to carry the cross. Jesus follows, still bleeding and sweating the cold, clammy sweat of shock.

The 650 yard journey from the fortress Antonia to Golgotha is finally complete. Jesus is again stripped of his clothes. The crucifixion begins. Jesus is offered wine mixed with myrrh, a mild pain-killing mixture. He refuses to drink. Simon is ordered to place the cross beam on the ground, and Jesus is quickly thrown backward with his shoulders against the wood. The legionnaire feels for the depression at the front of the wrist. He drives a heavy, square, wrought-iron nail through the wrist and deep into the wood. Quickly, the soldier moves to the other side and repeats the action, being careful not to pull the arms too tight, but to allow some flexibility and movement. The beam is then lifted, and the title reading “Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews” is nailed in place.

The victim Jesus is now crucified. As he slowly sags down with more weight on the nails in the wrists, excruciating, fiery pain shoots along the fingers and up the arms to explode in the brain - the nails in the wrists are putting pressure on the median nerves. The severing of the median nerve by the nails would produce the degree of pain as if someone grabbed, with pliers, the same nerve embedded in your elbow joint and squeezed it and twisted it for hours on end. As he pushes himself upward to avoid this stretching torment, he places his full weight on the nail through his feet. Again, there is the searing agony of the nail tearing through the nerves between the metatarsal bones of the feet. At this point, another phenomenon occurs. As the arms fatigue, great waves of cramps sweep over the muscles, knotting them in deep, relentless, throbbing pain. It was not uncommon for the shoulders to be pulled out of their sockets by the weight of the person’s body. The muscles would then be stretched two to three inches from their normal length. With these cramps comes the inability to push himself upward. Hanging by his arms, the pectoral muscles are paralysed, and the intercostal muscles are unable to act. Air can be drawn into the lungs but it cannot be exhaled. Jesus fights to raise himself in order to get even one short breath. Finally, carbon dioxide builds up in the lungs and in the bloodstream, and the cramps partially subside. Spasmodically, he is able to push himself upward to exhale and bring in the life-giving oxygen.

Now begin hours of this limitless pain, cycles of cramping and twisting partial asphyxiation, searing pain as tissue is torn from his lacerated back as he moves up and down against the rough timber. Then another agony begins. A deep, crushing pain in the chest as the pericardium slowly fills with serum and begins to compress the heart. It is now almost over - the loss of tissue fluids has reached a critical level; the compressed heart is struggling to pump heavy, sluggish blood into the tissues; the tortured lungs are making a frantic effort to gasp in small gulps of air. The markedly dehydrated tissues send their flood of stimuli to the brain. His mission of atonement has been complete. Finally he can allow his body to die. With one last surge of strength, he once again presses his torn feet against the nail, straightens his legs, takes a deeper breath, and utters his final words.

When the chief executioner comes to ensure death has taken place, the spear's thrust releases the blood that is now separated into serum and platelets - Jesus was dead. This appears to the eyewitness who wrote this account as water and blood. Jesus was in fact, dead when they laid Him in the tomb.

I happen to believe that Jesus gave up His life. "No one takes My life from Me. I lay it down and I take it back up again." Yes, Jesus suffered and died. Yes, He endured agony beyond anything most of us will ever experience. What Jesus dead? Without a doubt. Did He die exclusively from crucifixion? I don't think so. I think that the Creator of life gave up His life on a voluntary basis. Three days later (as Jews of the time counted time) Jesus took back His life.

Ginx is just the latest in a long, long line of atheists making the ridiculous claim that when Jesus was taken from the cross, He was still alive. Well, if you’ve heard one atheist, you’ve heard them all.

14 comments:

Hugo said...

You were good at writing this Makarios. If Jesus really went through all this exactly the way you wrote it, it's really horrible. And I don't see any reason for that not happening, because that's the kind of story that's plausible, unfortunately...

Let me comment on this now:
No one need doubt the death of Jesus - I mean, other than atheist and Islamic fundamentalists whose very belief system depends on Jesus NOT dying on the cross and NOT rising from the dead

Before reading Ginx on the other comment thread I had never heard anyone claiming that Jesus could be alive, so it's really weird to read that atheists think Jesus was not dead on the cross!

So who thinks that he was not dead? Why would they think such thing? I don't get it... were you serious Ginx?

Anyway, it does not really matter either because your why? questions are useless Makarios, we are just discussing a STORY here, not real historical events. Some of it happened, for sure, because Christianity did start around those years so no one can deny that...

Makarios said...

Hugo, between this comment and the one on "Why?" I'm concerned. You're rambling and contradicting yourself. It's not good. Do you have access to 911? If you get dizzy, feeling numb, blurred vision or find it hard to speak, use it.

Hugo said...

Hugo, between this comment and the one on "Why?" I'm concerned. You're rambling and contradicting yourself. It's not good. Do you have access to 911? If you get dizzy, feeling numb, blurred vision or find it hard to speak, use it.

Well, unlike you Makarios I am not afraid to point out my own mistake, admit that I was wrong, and move on, having learned something.
Can you point out such contradiction? I don't know what you are talking about...

Makarios said...

"Can you point out such contradiction?"

"If Jesus really went through all this exactly the way you wrote it,And I don't see any reason for that not happening, because that's the kind of story that's plausible,"

THEN

"Anyway, it does not really matter either because your why? questions are useless Makarios, we are just discussing a STORY here, not real historical events"

Ginx said...

He was dead according to whose standard? According to Joseph of Arimathea, a Jesus sympathizer in Pilot's counsel? It sounds like a huge scam to me. I know the beginning of the verse says they came to him "already dead," what I'm saying is he would not be dead at that point.

There is no Muslim/atheist conspiracy. If I stepped foot in some Muslim countries, I would be subject to murder as an infidel, so kindly check yourself with your bullshit claims of how similar we are. We just agree, along with the Jews, that Jesus was only a man... and history seems to agree with us.

Good luck waiting on Jesus to come back... like a sad little kid believing his dad will be back from getting cigarettes 2000 years later.

Zzzst said...

The historical facts of Jesus life, death and resurrection,

Historical facts! Yeah, right!
Stop being so literal.
God and Jesus are a metaphor.

Zzzst said...

I think that the Creator of life gave up His life on a voluntary basis.

No. Your god died nailed to something. My god carries a hammer. Any questions?


Three days later (as Jews of the time counted time) Jesus took back His life.

... Ha. Ha ha. Bwa ha ha ha!

Makarios said...

"Three days later (as Jews of the time counted time) Jesus took back His life."

Do you even know what I'm referring to, Z? And if so, are you saying that it's not accurate? Are you saying that it isn't how the Jews tracked time?

Or is it just some more laughter from a dumb atheist?

Makarios said...

"He was dead according to whose standard?"

Any physician who reads the account. Do you not understand what it means for serum and platelettes to separate? It means that death has taken place.

Anonymous said...

40For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

True Christian said...

The Part-of-a-Day Theory Wrong

Men, in order to get the Bible out of an embarrassing situation, allege that the Jews counted a part of a day as the whole day. Such passages as Genesis 42:17, 18; 1 Samuel 30:12, 13; Esther 4:15-17; 1 Kings 20:29; and 1 Chronicles 10:5 are cited to prove this theory. However, none of these passages prove "three days and three nights" means two nights and one day. Only one of them even contains the expression "three days and three nights" 1 Samuel 30:12. But there is absolutely no reason to give "three days and three nights" in 1 Samuel 30:12 any meaning except their literal meaning. Divine inspiration declares the young man "had eaten no bread, nor drunk any water, three days and three nights." What authority has any man to contradict these plain words by affirming the time was not so long? The expression, "three days, night and day", in Esther 4:15, is not the same wording as "three days and three nights" in Matthew 12:40. There is no mention of any nights at all in the other passages; therefore, they give no evidence as to the meaning of "three days and three nights." There is no reason to take any of the passages cited in any sense except their literal sense, unless one has a theory to prove. The "three days and three nights" in Jonah 1:17 are to be taken in their literal sense.

Granting that some of the Jews did count a part of the day for a whole day, can it be proven that this is what Jesus meant? Can it be proven that the Jews counted a part of a day as a whole day and a whole night? Where is the proof in the inspired Word?

Yet, proponents of the Good Friday tradition want us to believe that a part of a day meant a whole day and a whole night. Men who believe the Bible to be literally true dare not accept such reasoning.

The Meaning of Day in the Bible

The word "day" in the Bible in its primary sense means the interval between dawn and darkness.

"And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night . . . " (Genesis 1:5, Compare Genesis 1:14-18; 8:22.)

This is the first occurrence of the word "day" in the Bible, and the Lord God himself gives its meaning. Jesus believed there were 12 hours in a day. He asked in John 11:9:

" . . . Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world."

Jesus made a day and night consist of 24 hours. Can there be any higher authorities than the Lord God and Jesus Christ? Do not such authorities settle the matter for all true believers?

In the Bible a day is the interval of time comprising the period between two successive risings of the sun (Genesis 7:24; Job 3:16). The Hebrews reckoned it from evening to evening Exodus 12:18,

" . . . from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath" (Leviticus 23:32).

The 12-hour night began at sunset and ended at sunup. It was counted before the 12-hour day.

"And the evening and the morning were the first day" (Genesis 1:5).

Hence a new day began at 6 o'clock in the evening and lasted until the same time the next evening--a period of 24 hours--a 12-hour night followed by a 12-hour day!

True Christian said...

The Good Friday Hoax

The Bible nowhere says or implies that Jesus was crucified and died on Good Friday! It is said that Jesus was crucified on

"the day before the Sabbath", (Mark 15:42; Luke 23:54; John 19:14, 31, 42).

As the Jewish weekly Sabbath came on Saturday, scholars have assumed Jesus was crucified on Good Friday. This is poor reasoning because the Bible bears abundant testimony that the Jews had other Sabbaths.


If Jesus were buried at sunset on Wednesday and arose at sunset on Saturday, He fulfilled the sign of Jonah. He would have been in the grave Wednesday night, Thursday night, and Friday night--a full "three days". All together a full "three days and three nights." Thus we have a literal fulfillment of the words of Christ in Matthew 12:40. hence there is no need to follow Roman Catholic tradition which makes Jesus Christ a liar. Truly,

". . . He rose again the third day according to the scriptures" (1Corinthians 15:4),

not the second day according to Roman Catholic tradition!

The Third Day

Some Scriptures speak of His resurrection

"after three days" (Mark 8:31; 9:31 R. V.; 10:34 R. V.; Matthew 27:63).

Other verses say

"three days" (Matthew 26:60, 61; 27:39, 40; Mark 14:58; 15:29, 30; John 2:19, 20).

Still others speak of
"the third day"
Some make much over "the third day" in Luke 24:21, and they affirm that if the crucifixion took place on Wednesday, Sunday would be the fourth day since these things were done. But the answer is simple. These things were done just as Thursday was beginning at sunset on Wednesday. They were therefore completed on Thursday, and the first day since Thursday would be Friday, the second day since Thursday would be Saturday, and "the third day since" Thursday would be Sunday, the first day of the week.

So the supposed objection in reality supports the Wednesday crucifixion. But if the crucifixion took place on Friday, by no manner of reckoning could Sunday be made "the third day since" these things were done.

Unless we believe the Bible contains errors, we know that all passages must harmonize. Therefore, "after three days" must mean the same as "the third day" Matthew 16:21.

There is nothing in the Bible to favor the Good Friday crucifixion of Jesus Christ. The biblical record harmonizes with a Wednesday crucifixion and Saturday evening resurrection--a full 72 hours. This view allows for a literal interpretation of "three days and three nights." It allows for the word "after three days" to mean just that. It proves that Jesus Christ fulfilled the sign of Jonah and thus proved His Messiahship to the Jews.

Makarios said...

"Granting that some of the Jews did count a part of the day for a whole day, can it be proven that this is what Jesus meant?"

And these would be Jewish atheists or villiage idiots, or what? Why would they do that when, according to you, it is so clear what God / Jesus meant by a day and a night?

Make it "abundantly clear" to me about these other Sabbaths.

Hugo said...

H: "Can you point out such contradiction?"

M, quoting me: "If Jesus really went through all this exactly the way you wrote it,And I don't see any reason for that not happening, because that's the kind of story that's plausible,"

THEN


"Anyway, it does not really matter either because your why? questions are useless Makarios, we are just discussing a STORY here, not real historical events"


First of all, I was completely out of the track on that other post "Why" concerning the moon projects. When I first read the blog post I only saw the link, and asked you what the "Why?" was for, then you answered, but I missed the answer... so you had replied twice already! lol

Ok, but concerning the contradiction shown above, no, I do not agree, I don't see any contradiction.

It's possible that a man identified as Jesus suffered a terrible death on a cross after defying the authorities. And, at the same time, I do not consider it possible that this same person would perform miracles just to name that. That's the "story" part, the symbols, metaphors, you know, the parts atheists are too dumb to interpret correctly... oh no wait, you're the one doing that in that case, my bad.