People make me laugh - in a tearful kind of manner.
Like I’ve said, we typically believe that:
a) Bad things won’t happen
b) If a bad thing does happen, it would happen to me
c) If a bad thing happens to me, it won’t be severe
d) If a bad thing happens to me and it’s severe, well, there’s nothing I could have done about it anyway.
A humorous example of how we deny or ignore the “dangerous” is the old warning that masturbation will make you go blind. To which we respond, “Well, then I’ll just do it till I need glasses.” The most extreme example is our attitude regarding Hell. Knowing full well the requirements for escaping hell, some have said, “Well if it turns out that there IS a God, I’m sure He’s loving and forgiving so all will be fine.” This is eternity they're talking about and they toss it aside with some glib invention of a god they don't really believe in.
It’s the same with evil. As long as it doesn’t interfere with our daily routine, we choose to ignore it; we pretend that it doesn’t exist. As one man said to me regarding the state of the world, “It’s not so bad.”
Ya, tell that to the 2/3's of our global village who don’t have clean drinking water, or access to adequate medical care or to the 10's of thousands who TODAY will die from starvation. Why do the majority of people in the world live in conditions that you and I would find appalling? Because the rest of us refuse to share. That’s why. And why don’t we share? Because having more than enough makes us think, “It’s not so bad.” Thinking that it’s all good makes us feel secure and comfortable in our smug suburbian oblivion.
Those who deny or ignore evil must also deny the fact that:
No one has to teach their children to put themselves first.
No one has to teach their children to take what isn’t theirs.
No one has to teach their children to take what they don’t need.
No one has to teach their children to take what someone else has.
No one has to teach their children to strike, unprovoked, with the intent to do harm.
Yet there are those who ignore evil to the point of actually believing that we are born “good” and that we are on the path to “better.”
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18 comments:
Why care if life is short compared to eternity?
Why care if your god is going to torture these people anyway?
And it's the people's fault that your god tortures them in Hell..?
Isn't not having clean drinking water better than having your god torture these people?
You worship a monster that's worse than Hitler.
Why care if your god is going to torture these people anyway?
Funny, I had another atheist mention this last night. Where in Scripture do we read that God is torturing people Glen?
YHWH creates a lake of fire and throws people into it.
Chapter? Verse? I'm not doubting you, I just want to make sure that we are on the same page here. Are you referring to the 20th chapter of Revelation?
This is weird. I got out the Bible and was reading about Hell when the Jehovah's Witnesses came.
According to them, there is no Hell.
I was basically reading the texts from here...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell_in_Christian_beliefs#Hell_in_the_New_Testament
I like to read around the quotes to make sure it's in context.
Anyway, the JW's think I'm prime material and are coming back with books for me to read....
Mak, you make me laugh. You are so full of shit and your posts discredit those who actually put some effort into spreading the delusion of Christianity.
If by "evil" you mean that bad things happen and that suffering is caused both naturally and by the misdeeds of man, nobody can disagree with that assertion. However, when you go a step further and suggest that we need to accept that evil has a supernatural cause in order to teach our children the moral tenets you list, you lose all credibility.
You are living a lie. I understand perfectly well that you consider the lie to be morally exemplary but it doesn't change the fact that it is a lie.
Of course, we are born "good". What "bad" has been done by an infant who dies during childbirth or a 5 year old who succombs to cancer? Is the masturbating adolescent sinning? At what age does your delusion of choice decide that an infant/child/adolescent is morally responsible for their decisions and will be held accountable? I would love to hear your answer to that.
P.S. I must share my favorite atheist prayer with you: Dear God [if you exist]. It was only an apple. Don't shit a brick. Love Humanity.
You stepped in it this time Glen. Now that you demonstrated a modicum of interest (or at least something other than immediate, outright rejection) they will be back and IN FORCE. This link spells out some of the differences between orthodox Christianity and fringe groups (cults) such as theirs.
Ya, it was only an apple like having sex with your neighbour's wife is only an orgasm.
Oops ... I forgot. Despite your occasional lapses of sanity, you actaully believe in the Fall of Man. But it was still just an apple. Forbidden by God ... yes. But what the f*ck did I have to with any of that?
I'm still waiting to hear about the moral blameworthiness of infants, children and masturbating adolescents. I'm all ears ....
"But what the f*ck did I have to with any of that?"
You and I and every one else would have made exactly the same choice, to rebel against our Creator.
In the beginning our focus was on God.
Sin brought about a focus on ourselves.
The suffering that was brought about by our decision to rebel against God is a chance to once again place our focus on God OR for those who wish, to solidify their rebellion against God. I've chosen the former - to date, you've chosen the latter.
I explained it in "Is God Insane?"
"I'm all ears ...."
Whether or not masturbation or anything else is a sin is not the point. What we do is just a symptom of what's in our nature. Knowing with confidence that God is fair, I'm content to leave the issue of children up to Him.
You and I and every one else would have made exactly the same choice, to rebel against our Creator.
You're missing the point. The point is that we didn't rebel against the Creator. Apparently, our forefathers did. Why should I be expelled from paradise just because my forefathers did? Why should I be stained by their original sin? Do you think it's ok for the children of Lot and Jezebel to be punished for the sins of their parents?
From Wikipedia: Some Christians believe the Fall corrupted the entire natural world, including human nature, causing people to be born into original sin, a state from which they cannot attain eternal life without the gracious intervention of God. Protestants hold that Jesus' death was a "ransom" by which man was made forever free from the sin acquired at the Fall, and other denominations believe that this act made it possible for man to be free without necessarily ensuring it. Sweet Jesus Mak, do you really believe this mumbo jumbo?
“It’s not so bad.”
That was me, in response to your view on the planet.
To keep this short, the day is coming where certain religious extremists will be capable of getting their hands on nuclear weaponry. Then we'll see how much worse it can really be. Same god, different religion - they believe in what they are doing just as much as you do. Sigh.
Oh, TAM, there is apparently a special 'age of accountability', according to Mak. What this age precisely is, he doesn't know. But it's ok, because god does.
For Wiki, that's fairly close to accurate.
Allah is not even close to the same God.
the day is coming where certain religious extremists will be capable of getting their hands on nuclear weaponry. Then we'll see how much worse it can really be. Same god, different religion - they believe in what they are doing just as much as you do. Sigh.
So you freely admit that you cannot possibly rise above some sort of sub-wikipedia level in your understanding of religion?
Is it fair to commit the common atheist fallacy of lumping all religions in together?
If only one out of the several main religions in the world is resposible for fully HALF of all wars fought over religion, might it indicate that one religion has a disporportionate amount of excess baggage insofar as peaceful existance is concerned? Your perception on this matter is predictably myopic Rab. Might you consider taking a remedial course offered at the junior college level NOT taught by PZ Myers in order to broaden your horizons?
TAM can you follow this?
You've won the lottery - But you have to go to the office to cash in your ticket.
You've been invited to the most posh event in town - But you have to go to the event to enjoy it.
You've won tickets to your favourite concert - But you have to go to the concert to enjoy it.
The most awesome woman ever has invited to go on a date with her - But you have to respond with a yes in order to go out with her.
Jesus has provided the means for your salvation - But you must receive this forgiveness from Him.
It really isn't that difficult. Like I say, even Wiki is close to correct.
So your telling me that Muslims and Christians effectively worship different gods?
I was under the impression (like so many others, including a catholic friend of mine) that the three abrahamic religions worship the same god, they just branched off differently.
What you suggest to me is effectively that protestants and catholics worship different gods.
In any case, my point still stands - that day is probably gonna come, and when it does the world will hit an all time new level of low.
And JD, with regards to credibility, all religions are on a level pegging in my books. They are all equally silly, i don't discriminate between someone who believes in Zeus or someone who believes in god. I believe in neither, therefore i think both people are being equally false.
Here's what I mean by different God's. You may have heard this before and simply chose to ignore it because it doesn't fit with what you want to believe.
Regardless:
. In the Bible the word love is used almost 400 times and about 75%of those times it's talking about God's love for us.
. In the Quran, the word love is not used even once, not one single time to describe Allah.
. God in the Bible is described as a personal, knowable God who is intensely interested in the joy and the well-being of you the individual.
. The Quran describes Allah as a distant and unknowable.
. The Bible teaches that God loves everyone equally, even enemies and sinners. In fact the whole purpose of Jesus coming to earth was to make peace with His enemies and to invite them to an eternal home in the presence of God's love.
. The Quran teaches that Allah loves only faithful Muslims. The Quran teaches that Allah hates sinners and infidels. In fact the Quran teaches that Allah hates them so much that faithful Muslims are encouraged to kill infidels "where ever they may be found."
. The Bible teaches that through Jesus and because of His love we can have assurance of salvation.
. The Quran teaches that while only Muslims will have salvation, no individual Muslim can know if s/he will be saved. The faithful Muslim can only hope that Allah will find h/her worthy of paradise. In fact the only way for a Muslim to be guaranteed paradise is to die while killing non Muslims.
. Unlike Christianity, there is no Saviour in Islam and no promise of salvation.
. Unlike Christianity, Islam has no means of or basis for forgiveness.
. Perhaps most relevant to our time is the difference between Islam and Christianity regarding the term martyr. In Christianity a martyr is someone who is killed by others for what s/he believes. In Islam a martyr is someone who dies while killing others because they don't believe in Allah.
Christianity and Islam, God and allah are not anything alike.
Mak, for once i acknowledge something you have said - that the two gods seem very different.
However, like it or not, they stem from the same origin do they not?
I find it utterly amazing how you simply discard the muslims and allah like that (as you should), yet can't apply the same line of thought to god and christianity.
Because lets be honest, try as you might, you cannot prove that your religion is any more correct that theirs. For anything you can say, a devout muslim would most likely disagree and give you his account as to why his/her religion is right.
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