I had an atheist tell me, "A person has value as long as someone values them."
What an admission! If I was an atheist and believed that, I don't think that I could look people in the eye. Of course if I was an atheist, I wouldn't believe in right or wrong. All I'd have are opinions - so . . .
It does make me wonder though, am I correct in assuming that ALL atheists think like the one I quoted above? If there was only one human being in the whole universe, would that person have value and worth?
Or, if there were two people in the whole universe, but they didn't like each other would either of them have value and worth?
We know from Christianity that:
God doesn't love us because of who we are
God loves us because of who He is
God doesn't love us because we have value and worth
We have value and worth because God loves us
In a secular world value and worth come and go with the ebb and flow of society's convoluted and whimsical value system. In a secular world, if you say you have value and your neighbour says that you don't have any value, your neighbour is just as correct as you are.
So, according to atheists, if there was just one person in the entire universe, would that person have value and worth? If that person was you, would you have value and worth?
30 comments:
If there was just one person in the entire universe, would that person have value and worth?. Value and worth are relative terms - almost meaningless in a one person world. Something only has value in comparison to something else. I suppose even that lone inhabitant would value food over a decorative item but perhaps not over one which held sentimental value to them.
God doesn't love us because we have value and worth. We have value and worth because God loves us. It is precisely suggestions like this that convince me the world would be a better place without religion and certainly without Christianity. What a thing to tell a child: you are worthless except for the fact that some fairy in the sky loves you.
Meaningless in a lone person world"
If you were the only person in the universe, God would still have died for you to provide you with the opportunity to avoid hell - if you chose to do so.
Better to tell a child that than to say, Any thoughts about your worth or value are meaningless. You're just an accident of nature.
Mak even accidents have a cause ... and they don't need to be supernatural.
I am getting the sense that the reason you believe in God is because you can't cope with the conception of life without one. If you had terminal cancer, I presume that your preference would be for the doctor to lie to you and say that you're ok - correct?
Mak,
Better to tell a child that than to say, Any thoughts about your worth or value are meaningless. You're just an accident of nature.
I dunno what you'talkin'bout:
"Meaningless"? "Just"?
You happen to be a product of nature. Imagine that! Matter can produce consciousness. Matter that can think about itself.
I would not call it "just" an accident from nature. If I did call it an accident (without the "just" thing), I would have to add "and what an amazing accident!"
I do not see why the only way to have some value and meaning is to be loved by some omni-everything thing. I do not see how that actually adds such a value and meaning. Wait! It doesn't! It is just a matter of perception! Mere opinion. I have value and meaning because God loves me. Really? Can you explain to me how exactly does that give you value and meaning?
G.E.
God doesn't love us because of who we are
God loves us because of who He is
God doesn't love us because we have value and worth
We have value and worth because God loves us
Did you interview my abusive exhusband for this post? Seriously, replace "God" with the ex's name and you have exactly what went on in my life for several years. You have an abusive relationship with a nonexistent person.
Good for you.
PersonalFailure, [applause]. You may take your bow.
"You happen to be a product of nature."
I see that you don't have a clue about natural selection. The word "produce," as it seems to be used by you implies intent. There is no intent in evolution.
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I would have to add "and what an amazing accident!"
Ya, you could throw in "Unbelievable" accident.
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"I do not see why the only way to have some value and meaning is to be loved by some omni-everything thing."
So answer my question. If you were the only human in an accidental universe, would you have value?
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Personal - I don't see the comparison. God can't NOT love us. He IS love. Regardless of who you are or what you're like, God loves YOU. Just the opposite of your husband, I suspect. Abusive love is conditional love. Abusive love is a love that you can lose if you aren't pretty enough or smart enough or (insert condition here).
Only you can keep God's love from embracing you and protecting you and from bring you safely home.
Mak,
"am I correct in assuming that ALL atheists think like the one I quoted above?".
No.
You would be correct in assuming that ALL atheists lack a belief in God/gods, but that's about all you can say about ALL atheists.
Cheers,
"am I correct in assuming that ALL atheists think like the one I quoted above?".
No."
So I would only be correct in that
ALL atheist beliefs regarding a person's vallue and worth are either incoherent or trivial, i.e. personal opinion.
Mak,
Nope, to be a product of nature does not imply purpose.
To be a product of anything does not imply purpose. Unless I said "you are a cleaning product of nature" then it implies purpose. Otherwise, product or consequence of natural phenomena do not imply purpose.
So answer my question. If you were the only human in an accidental universe, would you have value?
Yup. I would. What about you?
Now answer mine: How exactly does the omni-everything thing love give you value and meaning?
And, since you like those scenarios: If you were enclosed into a little tiny room, no windows, all walls black. Total silence, for all eternity, you would feel that the value and meaning are still there because the room is not an accident but the creation of this omni-everything being, besides this being loves you?
G.E.
Abusive love is conditional love. Abusive love is a love that you can lose if you aren't pretty enough or smart enough or (insert condition here).
No kidding, so if I do not love God back will I still go to heaven?
G.E.
I see that you don't have a clue about natural selection.
Really? Can you explain natural selection to me? I am so exited! I am about to learn something!
G.E.
Yup. I would. What about you?"
How does an purposeless accident attain value?
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Now answer mine: How exactly does the omni-everything thing love give you value and meaning?"
See my tomorrow's post
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No kidding, so if I do not love God back will I still go to heaven?"
It's not about love, at least not at first. It's about receiving what's being offered. Since you reject the offer of forgivenes, Justice does not allow God to give you heaven. Besides, why would you want to spend eternity in the presence of God and billions of Christians? If you can't stand him for this blink of an existence here on earth how could you ever stand Him for eternity. God knows what you think about Him, therefore He will not force you, against your obvious will, to be in His presence.
Evolution entails no purpose, no intent - only through accidental mutation does a phenotype progress and reproduce in the most fit manner possible.
Mak,
How does an purposeless accident attain value?
I guess it depends on which purposeless accident we are talking about. In the case that you presented, why would it not attain value?
Why are diamonds valuable? They are purposeless accidents of nature after all. High pressure, high temperature, some carbon ...
How exactly does a purposeful non-accident of a higher power attain value?
Does purposeful non-accidental pig-farming give value and meaning from the pig's perspective?
(what we seem to be missing is a definition of value, which keeps being lacking and lacking, no matter how much I ask.)
I will see your post tomorrow. My prediction: "either incoherent or trivial, i.e. personal opinion."
G.E.
Evolution entails no purpose, no intent - only through accidental mutation does a phenotype progress and reproduce in the most fit manner possible.
Hum, I am a bit disappointed. I thought it would be clear what natural selection is. I do not get which part is the part meaning "selection" here. Also:
Does "fit" have an independent meaning all by itself, some idealistic abstract meaning, or does it depend on the environment somehow?
What happen with those accidental mutations after selection?
Do all of the "accidental mutations" prevail, or only the advantageous ones?
Is every possibility available every round of selection, or does the accumulation of genes and their variations depend historically on what has been selected before?
Is there any historical accumulation at all?
Are genes useful by themselves or their potential depends on the genetic backgrounds of the population?
If there is historical accumulation, can evolution be thought of as purely random?
If there is historical accumulation, can evolution build upon such accumulation, or does it have to forcefully work with complete randomness each time?
After you have pondered and answered these question: Does "lack of purpose and intent" mean, to you, the same as "purely random"?
I look forward to learning more about evolution from you! (I am really so exited! So much to learn, and from yourself!)
:-)
G.E.
"If this, If that"
What do I care? I'm asking whether an accidental organism in an accidental universe can have value which in a secular world it does not. On atheism, value is nothing but an arbitrary attribute. On Christianity, we are secure, valued and loved - Period
Mak,
Should I take that to mean you do not want to teach me about evolution?
You said I had no idea, so I had to ask. Since you are such a good Christian, valuable and all, I assumed that you would consider the time well used if a poor guy like myself got some education (the name I use is for my own sake, whether others want to get the message or not is another story).
What do I care? I'm asking whether an accidental organism in an accidental universe can have value
I answered quite clearly. I said yes, it can.
which in a secular world it does not.
Then why do I see that it clearly does?
On atheism, value is nothing but an arbitrary attribute.
So you say, yet you fail to clearly show what that non-arbitrary value is in Christianity.
On Christianity, we are secure, valued and loved - Period
You keep avoiding telling me what that value is exactly. I am starting to suspect you have no idea how to make it look like it is not "either incoherent or trivial, i.e. personal opinion." How to make it look like it is not "an arbitrary attribute."
G.E.
Does the love of your children make you valuable Mak? Even slightly? Do they consider you valuable because they love you? Is their love meaningless to you? Are they valuable to you only because there is a God? Do they have any value to you by themselves? Do you have any value to them only because there is a God? Wouldn't you mean anything to them otherwise?
G.E.
Abusive love is conditional love.
If you don't do what YWHW wants, he'll throw you into a lake of fire that he created.
G / E - my answer, re: arbitrary value is in my reply to you in my last post.
Glen - I don't know if you had any children or not, but if you did, were there any consequences, positive or negative for their choices? Or do you imagine that loving your children ensures that no one experiences justice. Should there be no police? No rules of any kind. No consequences of any kind for breaking the laws that society has seen fit to establish?
Out of love, God has clearly explained to you, ahead of time what is required to escape hell.
He has clearly explained how to attain paradise in heaven. He will not ever go against your will and force you into heaven when you want nothing to do with Him. On the other hand, the offer of salvation is open to you right up to your dying breath. How is that not loving?
What do you think you would lose by following Jesus?
If you don't do what YWHW wants, he'll throw you into a lake of fire that he created.
Remarkably shortsighted. What if Yahweh spelled out that murder is wrong and thou shalt not steal? (Oh wait, He did). What if everyone were allowed into Heaven irregardless of whatever sin they committed? Would that be fair? Should we just murder with wanton abandon and not worry about any consequences for our actions? What sort of God WOULD NOT judge such crimes against humanity harshly?
Glen - I don't know if you had any children or not, but if you did, were there any consequences, positive or negative for their choices? Or do you imagine that loving your children ensures that no one experiences justice.
Of course, there are consequences, Here and now. I don't wait and throw them into a fire at the end of time.
Hell is the opposite of justice.
On the other hand, the offer of salvation is open to you right up to your dying breath. How is that not loving?
He offers to "save" you from something HE created? Your gods love is backed with torture.
What do you think you would lose by following Jesus?
I won't exchange truth for lies.
What if everyone were allowed into Heaven irregardless of whatever sin they committed?
Um, isn't that true in your worldview, as long as they "accept Jesus"*
Repentant serial murderers go to heaven and their unsaved victims go to the lake of fire.
*change to whatever your group believes.
"It shocks me. . ."
It shocks me that you'd rather go to hell than admit your need for forgiveness.
Yeah, do what your giant invisible (possibly imaginary) space hitler wants or be tortured. Shocking.
Mak,
"So I would only be correct in that
ALL atheist beliefs regarding a person's vallue and worth are either incoherent or trivial, i.e. personal opinion".
Your determination that any individual's beliefs (regarding value or otherwise) is either incoherent or trivial is a personal opinion on your part.
So if your personal opinion is that you consider personal opinion to be incoherent/trivial... then I don't really know what to say to you.
I've seen a number of atheists make entirely coherent statements about value on this very thread - whether you consider them trivial or not is irrelevant, your initial comment that I quoted is demonstrably incorrect in that some atheists do not agree with that statement.
My only point is that you cannot say 'ALL atheists...' about anything other than their collective lack of belief in deities.
Cheers,
Um, isn't that true in your worldview, as long as they "accept Jesus"*
Repentant serial murderers go to heaven and their unsaved victims go to the lake of fire.
Again, willfully ignorant of Christian theology. By this account you would seem to believe that by merely mumbling a few words then all is forgiven and hunky-dory when that is the first step on the road to getting right with God. Don't feel bad though. Such oversimplification on these types of matters is common among your co-religionists.
Ex - I've seen a number of atheists make entirely coherent statements about value"
Would you remind me of them please? What I mean by trivial of incoherent is that atheist claims of value have no warrant, no coherent base that isn't arbitrary and subject to change according to the whims of society.
JD Curtis, you don't believe repentant people who accept Jesus get to Heaven?
Well, that's why I put the asterisk there.
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