Because we're heading to the lake tomorrow, I'll do tomorrow's post today.
I was talking to a guy who thinks that human beings have intrinsic objective value. That sounds ok until you realise the guy is an atheist. Ya, that's what I thought too. It doesn't make any sense.
He and a couple other atheists are leaning towards something like, "How arrogant of Christians to think that a planet, let alone a universe was created just for people."
Actually, I'd have to agree - If that is what Christians believed and If that is what the Bible taught. Neither assumption is correct.
The problem is, almost everything that atheists say or think shows their ignorance about the Bible and about their Creator. The Bible, which Jesus taught is a revelation from God, to us, about God and His plan for the cosmos teaches the following:
#1 The Cosmos was not created for us. It was created for God.
#2 We, humans, were not created for us and for our pleasure. We were created for God.
#3 God does not love us because we're good. God loves us because He is good.
#4 God does not love us because we have value and worth. God gives us value and worth.
Now, if those statements sound to someone like grounds for arrogance in human beings, I'm not sure what it would take to change that person's mind. Nevertheless, I think it can be explained further this way.
When I was a kid, my dad used to take me to farm auctions. He rarely bought anything, but he liked to go. Something that is common at these auctions is what's called the "junk wagon." This is an area or platform or in some cases a literal wagon or flat-deck that contains stuff that most people would just throw out. Because it's an auction, it's put out to see if someone else might actually be willing to pay for it. On its own, this stuff is worth next to nothing. Let two or more people want the same things however, and any given item can take on astonishing value.
For whatever reason, God values us. Perhaps it's because we tend to value what we create. I don't know. For whatever reason, He loves us. In fact the Bible seems to say that God loved us so He THEN created us. It might not make sense to others, but it makes sense to God. Is an item from the junk wagon arrogant because someone wants it? Of course not.
Another example. On the shelf in one of the bookcases in my office, I have an Orange. It's not just any orange. It's a "Christmas" orange from 1984. Obviously this orange didn't get eaten in 1984. And, instead of rotting, this stupid thing just dried up and kinda fossilised. My wife asks why I keep it, but I happen to think it's kind of interesting. An object that is completely worthless to everyone else in the universe has value to me.
For whatever reason, God values us. For whatever reason, God loves us. It might not make sense to others but it makes sense to God. Is this particular orange, out of billions of oranges, arrogant because I want it? Of course not.
Another example. Two homeless people are walking down the street. Both are extremely hungry. They come to the door of a shelter that is serving lunch. One of them goes in and is filled with delicious food. The other chooses to remain on the street and churn with anger because of his hunger. When the first person comes out of the shelter, he sighs, rubs his stomach and says, "Ah, that was good."
The second person scowls and hisses like Christopher Hitchens, "You think you're better than me? You arrogant toad!" And while he refused to enter the shelter so that he could partake in the excellent meal, the second guy also blames the shelter for him being in his state of hunger. (That is a direct parallel to the atheist's attitude toward salvation. I'll reject salvation and then say that God doesn't love me because I'm refused entry to heaven).
For whatever reason, God values us. For whatever reason, God loves us. It might not make sense to others but it makes sense to God. Is the first man arrogant because he was wise enough to take advantage of free food?
One last example. Three men are being crucified. Two are criminals. One is Jesus. All are just minutes from death. One of them curses Jesus. The other one says, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom." Jesus replies to the one who is forgiven, "Today, you will be with me in paradise."
Is the forgiven criminal arrogant or grateful? Is the cursing criminal intelligent or a fool?
It doesn't matter why God loves us. The reality is, He does love us. Accepting that love is not a symptom or arrogance. Only a certain type of person would think that it does.
I'm amazed that my wife of 35 years knows the absolute worst about me and she still loves me. Rather than protest that love, I accept it and enjoy it. I consider myself to be a lucky man. I don't deserve her love but I'm tremendously grateful for it.
Our children are pretty much throw-away kids. Virtually no one wanted them. Most atheists would have killed two of them because they were conceived as a result of rape. My love for them is not because of any special endowments. Like Jesus' love for us, I think my love is because they lack those endowments. They really are sheep without a shepherd. These children are prime candidates for those in favour of eugenics. Yet they have my love. They enjoy my love. They thrive on my love.
Jesus loves me. And He doesn't just know all the bad stuff that I've done. He knows all the shameful thoughts that I've had today, and all the wrong things that I'm going to do in the future. Yet, knowing this, perhaps because of this, He still loves me enough to die for me. He loves me not because of any intrinsic value or worth that I possess, but because of who He is. God is Love. In fact He is so loving that the very same salvation that has been offered to me is offered to all atheists as well. The Bible says that, "While we are still His enemies, while we hate Him, ignore Him, even while we deny His existence, God gives us the offer of salvation."
Now, the Bible says that I'd be a fool to turn away from that kind of love, and I agree. I mean, if I relish a fraction of God's love as it's presented to me through my wife, why would I turn my back on the real deal? I accepted God's love 28 years ago. Since then every year has been better than the year before and I see no evidence that this trend will not continue. That's not arrogance, that's gratefulness.
. Just as liars suspect dishonesty in others
. Just as thieves are always on guard about having their stuff stolen
. Just as people who struggle with an unfaithful soul suspect their partners of being unfaithful,
So it is that the most arrogant among us imagine arrogance to be present in those for whom they have the least tolerance; the humble, the meek, the forgiven.
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Another example. Two homeless people are walking down the street. Both are extremely hungry. They come to the invisible door of a invisible shelter that is serving lunch. There are people talking about hundreds of other invisible shelters and how to get into them. These people's stories are often different and they are all impossible to verify. If fact these invisible shelters may not even exist! One of them goes in and can never return to tell anyone about what's happened.
The other chooses to remain on the street and churn with anger because of his hunger. Then the owner of the invisible shelter THROWS HIM INTO A LAKE OF FIRE to suffer forever. And it's the homeless persons fault!
Mak,
Not a single time did I say you were arrogant to believe you are valued. Not a single time did I say you were arrogant because you think God loves you. Not once.
I did not even hint at such a thing. Not once.
The other bloggers did not say anything about arrogance either.
So, you obviously did not refer to any of us.
You were so concentrated on the arrogance thing, that you missed the part where you would tell me how exactly these "values" are any less "arbitrary attributes" than the value atheists would find.
Neither your wife, nor your children, nor your fossilized little plant are omni-everythings. All of those are realities available for any of us, Christians or not. Thus:
Should I conclude that, by your definition, the love of your wife, and kids, and the value you give to your little dry plant all have "arbitrary attributes", all are "either incoherent or trivial, i.e. personal opinion."?
What exactly is that value that the omni-everything gives you? What makes it "intrinsic" and "objective."
Nothing of what you said entailed intrinsic and objective. All were very subjective, very dependent on your personal feelings and relationships. Even your finding yourself to be of value because God loves you entail subjective value. You think you are valuable because that being, "for whatever reason" loves you. So, it is not intrinsic, it is not objective. It is dependent on that specific being loving you ... specifically.
So?
G.E.
". . . you missed the part where you would tell me how exactly these "values" are any less "arbitrary attributes" than the value atheists would find."
The equality of all humans, their value and worth is because ALL, every single human on earth, even you and Glen are loved by God. He has done everything possible to provide for you
. free-will,
. love / salvation and
. justice.
Only you can keep Him from providing these things for you.
Now of course the atheist utopia, i.e., a life of behaviours and choices without consequence is not an option but . . .
Anyhow, unlike atheism where worth is attributed to the beautiful, the wealthy, the educated etc. God attributes worth and value to everyone, from conception to natural death.
Mak,
The equality of all humans, their value and worth is because ALL, every single human on earth, even you and Glen are loved by God.
That still does not resound as "intrinsic" and "objective". It still sounds like dependent on an individual (God) oppinion on you, and on your "individual" preference for thinking that this is what having value means. In other words, for you, value is to be loved by God. Nothing intrinsic, nothing objective at all.
He has done everything possible to provide for you
. free-will,
. love / salvation and
. justice.
Only you can keep Him from providing these things for you.
I still do not see the "intrinsic" and "objective" value here. More like an exhortation to be grateful for what this God of yours is supposed to have given me. remember you got all angry because I asked you to explain evolution to me (because you said I had no idea), and now you change the thee in the middle?
Now of course the atheist utopia, i.e., a life of behaviours and choices without consequence is not an option but . . .
The atheist utopia? You really bought into this idea of atheism being due because of love for sin? You really think that there would be no consequences unless there is a God? You really think we just want to misbehave freely? I have no such inclinations, thanks.
Anyhow, unlike atheism where worth is attributed to the beautiful, the wealthy, the educated etc.
Playing the all-knowing? I doubt that even a significant amount of atheists think this way. I think you put words into our mouths to make it easier for you to dismiss our questions and opinions and make your version of "value" look good in comparison. Which, again, you do by contrast. If you so desperately need to misrepresent what the atheists should think, it can only mean that the "value" you are talking about is not that "intrinsic," nor that "objective." It needs all the help it can get to at least look "better."
God attributes worth and value to everyone, from conception to natural death.
How exactly? Is it just that what it decides has value?
Of course you missed a thousand questions. But I expected it. You have no answers.
G.E.
I am leaving you alone Mak. I do not want you to be convinced of being an atheist. Your web site was in the memory of my browser, so I thought, "let us see what Mak has in mind". I found the reiterated (many Christians try this one) "value and meaning" thing. Which is preposterous as you have shown all by yourself.
Anyway, I know I am not going to convince you. But perhaps, only a very tiny perhaps, you could gain a bit of respect for those who you do not understand, for those you put words and thoughts into without even knowing them. After all, all atheists have in common is a disbelief in any gods. That is it.
Whatever it means in terms of what reality entails, well, it does not matter, if there is no gods, there is no gods. What someone likes better for reality does not mean reality will be. Same if there were a God of course ... whether someone likes the idea or not, that would not change such a reality.
Be well and enjoy the lake. Oh, also, not to worry, I know your children, and your wife, and your petrified orange, among many other thing, small and big, do have value to you, whether there is a God or not.
G.E.
Makarios, are you a crazy person? If so, maybe I've seen you in the psych ward a few times. The way you speak seems familiar.
Personal - I didn't go back to check but I'm pretty sure that THIS time I said, "Many" atheists would have,"
Glen,
Sounds like the Calvinist doctrine of predestination to me. You weren't ever a 5 point Calvinist, were you?
Glen,
Your description sounds like the Calvinist doctrine of predestination unto damnation. You weren't ever a 5 point Calvinist, were you?
no.
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