There's been some discussion about why God has done things the way He has. Why not make evidence of Himself clear to every one? Why not save everyone? Of course I don't have a definitive answer. I'm just this goof blogger. I have however given it a fair bit of thought and here's what I've come up with.
Why Has God Created Billions of People
Who Are Destined
for Eternal Separation From Him?
1. I Am God. Genesis 1:1
2. I Am before anything else. Genesis 21:33
3. I Am above and beyond anything else. Genesis 1:31; Exodus 20:3
4. I Am perfectly Pure, Holy and Righteous. There is nothing imperfect or "wrong" in Me. Psalm 19:7-9
5. Anything that is in rebellion to My perfect Purity, Holiness and Righteousness can never come into My presence. John 3:18,36
6. I Am completely and utterly Just. Psalm 7:11
7. I Am slow to anger; filled with great patience. I Am merciful and filled with grace. Psalm 5:7; 9:9,10
8. I Am Love. Psalm 25:8,9
9. Just as there cannot be the perception of up without a down, in without an out, hot without cold and light without darkness, there cannot be Love without evil. This is a spiritual reality or law.
10. Because I Am Love, there is evil rebellion against My love.
11. This evil has been allowed to exist first in the presence of rebellious angels. 1st Timothy 5:21
12. I Am One and I Am plural with God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.
13. In My Spirit, I love My Son. Mark 1:11
14. Love is the greatest entity to ever exist. 1st Corinthians 13:1
15. As a gift and a blessing, I want something special for My Son to love and I want that special something to love My Son.
16. That something, like the angels, must be created by Me. Genesis 1:26
17. It is My right to declare and uphold the terms and conditions of My creation. Job 41:11; Exodus 4:11; 11,12; 33:19; 1st Samuel 2:30
18. The special part of My creation will be human beings. They will be made in My image, possessing portions and degrees of My attributes and My characteristics. Genesis 1:27
19. I will make My justice and mercy known in and through human beings.
20. I want humans to love (Obey) My Son because in doing so, humans will enjoy their highest state of being. Joshua 1:8; 1st Kings 11:38;
2nd Chronicles 15:2, 15:9; Psalm 1:1-3, 4:8
21. I want to reward that love with eternity in paradise, ie. eternity in My presence. John 3:16; Psalm 18:25-27
22. For their love to be real, I know that humans must have the choice to not love My Son. Genesis 2:16
23. For their love to be real, I must allow humans to rebel against My love. Romans 11:32
24. If the first humans that I create love and obey Me, that love will be passed on to their offspring. That love will be inherited. It will not be a choice. ‘love’ will be robotic.
25. If the first humans that I create, rebel against My love by disobeying Me, then that spirit of rebellion will be passed on to their offspring.
26. In order for any humans to find fulfilment in truly loving Me, I must accept that all humans must first refuse to love Me. Genesis 3:7
27. No one will be able to love My Son without the help of My grace and mercy. John 6:44
28. I will provide those of my choosing with an opportunity to love Me and to obey Me. Romans 8:30, 9:16, 11:32
29. Through this plan I will demonstrate that I Am Love AND that I Am Just.
30. Because of who I Am, I cannot create in humans a spirit of Love and then draw them to evil to create real choice. I can only allow rebellion / evil to enter the human race in order to create real choice, and then save those who wish to be delivered from evil.
31. I will draw back my hand of protection and allow this course of history to unfold. Genesis 3:23; Deuteronomy 28:20-67
32. It is My right to declare and uphold the terms and conditions of My creation.
33. Love causes growth. Evil and rebellion cause death and destruction. Exodus 19:5; Leviticus 26:3-6, 16-24; Deuteronomy 6:6, 30:15-20
34. Because I love humans, I hate the rebellion that causes their destruction. Psalm 5:4
35. Those who continue in a spirit of rebellion will be objects of My anger. Genesis 7:4; Psalm 14:3
36. Objects of My anger cannot and will not be tolerated in My presence. Psalm 5:4
37. For the very survival of the gift to My Son, My justice, mercy, grace, love and patience, MUST be clearly displayed to humans (a) So they will know that they should repent of their rebellion and (b) To show them that they have a place to turn to for rescue from their rebellion.
- Humans will know My Justice because they know in their hearts that rebellion against Me is wrong. Those who continue in their rebellion will die spiritually and eternally.
- Because all will be born into a state of rebellion, it is only My Grace that will ensure that some humans get what they don’t deserve (life in eternal paradise) while My Mercy will ensure that those same humans don’t get what they do deserve (eternal separation from Me).
- They will know My Patience because I will persist in blessing those who continue in evil, until all those who are going to receive My merciful salvation have turned from their rebellion. Romans 9:22,23
- They will know My Love in that I, in the form of My Son, will forgive evil by taking my own punishment and suffering my own wrath for the horrible act of continued rebellion against a Creator God who is perfectly pure, holy, righteous, just, merciful, slow to anger, filled with great patience, filled with grace and abounding in Love.
38. I will rescue those who are not looking for Me, love those who hate Me, and make peace with those who are My enemies. 2nd Samuel 7:18; Isaiah 65:1; Romans 10:20
39. The rebellious cannot complain because they are in fact guilty of rebellion. Genesis 3:22; Psalm 14:3
40. The saved cannot boast because they have done nothing to deserve salvation.Romans 3:27,28
41. It is My right to declare and uphold the terms and conditions of My creation.
The real question then is not, "Why did God create billions of people who are destined to be eternally separated from Him?" The real question to be asked is:
Why Did God Create and Then Save For Eternity in Paradise, Billions of People Who Should Have Been Eternally Separated From Him.
16 comments:
So, in other words, because he can.
I can set my dog on fire. That doesn't make it a good idea.
"I have however given it a fair bit of thought and here's what I've come up with."
You gave it a fair bit of thought and came up with a bunch of direct quotes from scripture?
Man, am I glad that isn't what goes through my brain when I really give thinking a try.
Even spelled backwards, dog is still man's best friend :-)
Because He can? No, because He loves you. Because He loves you, God wants to make it possible for you to spend eternity in paradise. Only you can stop Him from making that happen.
No, Jordon. First I wrote it out on paper and THEN I looked through scripture to see if I could back it up. If you'll notice, not all of my points have that backing.
And of course I might be wrong in whole or in part.
Mak wrote: It is My right to declare and uphold the terms and conditions of My creation.
It is my right to tell you that you are full of shit and that, if I were omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent, my world would be a whole lot better than yours. You are a sad sack Creator and, if you are so powerful, why don't you strike me down where I stand for my blasphemy? Oh, I forgot - you only work in mysterious ways.
I second the above.
Even if a god created this world, they certainly aren't loving or just.
If you think they are, then i'd love to hear you saying that if you had a certain species of worm burrowing through your eyeball - as it is its only means to survive. Som just and loving creation that was, eh?
So how would you guys have done it differently?
Making it unambiguously and irrefutably clear that I am the one true god for all to see at present and in the future would be a good start.
Seeing as i'd be omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient, every time someone prays, i'd answer them directly with my answer and reasons behind the answer, no skin off my nose if i can do this all in the blink of an eyelid.
I would be my creations friend and genuinely help them (given the above powers) in times of need, in a way that they would be clear that it is i helping them, i.e. talking to them.
I would NOT demand worship or fiery damnation as the alternative. Why would i need worship from my friends?
I'd obliterate things such as povery, i wouldn't create a planet full of organisms that many survive through eating other ones. I wouldn't create organismas that are parasitic, casuing the host great discomfort. I would not create vicious virus' like HIV etc, i would not create disabled persons. Diseases such as cancer would not exist, cause i would never had spawned them.
People who do bad things would get a telling off, just like a parent does to a child. If they continue, i would take action there and then appropriate to the bad doings they have committed, rather than, say - allow them to continue and exterminate 11 million people.
Another example, is that i would lock up murderers for the rest of their lives, and resurrect those that he murdered and were robbed of their lives.
Given that i have made my existence clear, and EVERYBODY knows i am there - all the time - if somebody chose to ignore me then thats fine. I'm not going into a tantrum, but perhaps when they need help i'd be less inclined to help them. Of course, however, i don't think anyone would do that.
I could actually go on and on and on and on and on and on.
Thanks Rahab. That's pretty close to how things were. In the beginning, God created a world with no disease, no death. One crucial difference between how you would have done it and how it was, is that there weren’t any bad people doing bad things to other people.
In the beginning, God was without a doubt present with His creation and there was peace. We didn’t know the difference between good and evil because we only knew good. God said, If you allow Me to be God, this is how things will stay. I will keep evil at bay and you need never know anything about pain and suffering. Don’t go beyond this boundary, stay where your safe and all will be well.
If however you do step over this boundary you will immediately know both good AND evil. Your free will choice to disobey Me will allow evil to be present in the world.
Problem. We don’t want to be told what to do. We don’t want to be accountable to anyone, not even our Creator. We stepped over the boundary and the rest, as they say, is history. The whole universe is cursed. People, animals and nature itself is corrupted and prone to death, disease, and violence of every kind.
There will be no more peace until Jesus comes again and sets things right. This time around He will separate good from evil for all time. Those who are with God will know only good and peace. Those who are against God will know only evil and fear.
Like i said, i wouldnt throw a tantrum if i were god. If he exists he's just one big baby. All that intellect, plus the omniscience to know whats going to happen, yet he still allows it.
Also, if you believe ine volution, it quite clearly wasn't like that in the beginning was it?
Humans begin to appear and evolve to the state where they are completely self aware, and crucially, are able to question why they are here and question their surroundings. It's only natural that such primitive ancestors come up with the idea that something greater must be at work - so they worship the sun. Obvious choice.
As time goes on this gets disproved, yet other 'gods' have taken the suns place. They remain in that place, unbelievably, to this day.
The bible is so full of shit it is ridiculous.
Mak, can you at least show me enough respect to call me Rab? or Rabhimself?
Oh, and also like i said, i would make it clear forever more that i irrefutbaly, undeniably and unambiguously exist. Even if i decided to abandon man (which you god seems to have done) i'd still make it clear that i exist, and they should disbelieve at their own peril.
"Even if i decided to abandon man (which you god seems to have done)"
Abandon you? Whatever you may think of the way the world works, God came to earth to live the worst that this world has to offer. Jesus, our example and character goal, came to earth knowing in advance that he would be rejected,abused, misunderstood, mistreated, insulted, betrayed and ultimately have humanity do our absolute worst to him. Yet He entered into a covenant relationship with us anyway because He loves us. And then Jesus said, "Pick up your cross and follow Me (be like Me). God came to earth to not just provide a means for our salvation but to show us how to survive our time on earth.
Rab, I'll try to remember to do your name the way you like. I don't mean it as an insult. I find life tremendously boring and playing with names adds just a twinkle of change.
You are telling me in other posts that the state of our world is our fault, nothing to do with god. Surely this means he has abandoned us?
No matter how much someone prays for something, god never grants it. If you even try to argue against that, then Makarios, seeing as you have this wonderful relationship with Christ, how about you pray for the rapture tomorrow? Or pray for world peace?
Better yet, pray that the lord unambiguously and irrefutably (im getting sick of saying that) reveals himself to one and all, once and for all.
It.
Won't.
Happen.
Your god is nowhere to be seen in this world, the only inference from this is that he doesn't care.
“You are telling me in other posts that the state of our world is our fault, nothing to do with god. Surely this means he has abandoned us?”
Mmm, not really. I used to tell our oldest two kids, now 32 and 28
"If your behaviours get you thrown into jail, don’t ask me to bail you out."
Some people might read that and say that I was willing to abandon my children. Some would say that. Others would realise that my intent is to use the consequences of the wrong behaviours that they chose as a consequence, as a reminder for future reference.
I think God does that later. I think that most people don't have a clue how awful it would be if God drew back His hand of protection completely; if He truly abandoned us. God does not allow us to experience the full extent of our stupid choices. Instead, He takes the consequences of our wrong choices and for those of us who are members of His Kingdom, He uses those consequences to grow us, to change us, to develop our character to one of faith, goodness, knowledge, self-control, perseverance, godliness, brotherly kindness and love. In hell you’ll know beyond any doubt what it’s really like to be abandoned by God.
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“Better yet, pray that the lord unambiguously and irrefutably (im getting sick of saying that) reveals himself to one and all, once and for all.”
There’s no need to pray for that to happen. He’s already guaranteed that one day that will happen. Jesus said that He's going to come unexpectedly, like a thief in the night and the whole world will be confronted with that reality.
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“Your god is nowhere to be seen in this world, the only inference from this is that he doesn't care.”
As I said before, a more accurate statement would be,
“God is nowhere in this world that “I” can see.”
I on the other hand see God virtually everywhere. Ignoring evidence, Rab, doesn’t mean that it isn’t there, nor does it make the evidence go away.
WHAT EVIDENCE!?!?!?!?!
You are painfully frustrating sometimes. If the evidence was there, i'd believe it. The FACT is, it's not.
The evidence suggests he more than likely isn't!!
Ok, you have already agreed in another post that it's fair to accept that science has no answer for the singularity; that there is no evidence that it could come about by natural means. Atheists have faith that it WAS natural because they reject anything but natural BUT there isn't technically any evidence for a naturally induced singularity.
Ok - IF it wasn't natural, then everything that we see IS evidence for a Supernatural First Cause.
. Everything coming from nothing IS evidence.
. The 100 or so constants and quantities being "put in" prior to Planck time IS evidence.
. The finely tuned constants and quantities themselves IS evidence.
. The fact that objective morals, values and obligations exist IS evidence.
Makarios' opinion is evidence.
Makarios' opinion is evidence.
Makarios' opinion is evidence.
Makarios' opinion is evidence.
Makarios' opinion is evidence.
Would you give up with the "everything coming from nothing" stuff? That does not mean (if it is true) that god did it. What ou refer to as 'nothing' might actually be more than you think. We cannot tell what happened before the big bang.
Tell me, why is the analysis of prayer not worhty evidence of his non-existence. I'm fairly sure that within the biuble, that you hold so dearly, there is a passage (or passages) that basically claim if you really believe in him, and reach out and pray - you shall receive.
Yet it never works. All studies i have read about claim that prayer has no effect, regardless of whos doing the praying.
I challenge you once again to pray for something benevolent - perhaps the eradication of poverty in most of Africa. It will NOT be granted.
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