Monday, July 6, 2009

Atheists Take Note

Jairus was a powerful man in his community. A member of the religious council, president of the synagogue, he had influence over people’s live. He had the power to destroy or to secure someone’s place in the community. Jesus had earlier been on the discipline end of this relationship. Jesus had been barred by Jairus and his cohorts from preaching in the synagogue in Capernaum. This time however, the tables appeared to have been turned. Jairus’ daughter was deathly ill. If anyone else could help I’m sure he would have bypassed Jesus and gone to that person instead. No such luck. Jesus was the only game in town.

Jairus fell to his knees and begged Jesus to come to his house to heal his daughter. The irony was rich. And Jesus’ response? He’d been rejected by this man. He’d been mocked and belittled by this man. Jesus had been cast out of the community by this man and here he was begging Jesus for help. And Jesus said,

“I will come with you.”

That’s all it takes. All one has to do is ask. All one has to do is humble yourself and say, “I was wrong. Please forgive me. Please save me.”

Atheists call this grovelling. It sickens them. Atheists would rather drown than reach out for the only hand that can save them. Nevertheless, take note. Even if at one point in your life you have thrown Jesus out of your life, all you have to do is come back to Him and, regarding the rest of your life Jesus will say,

“I will come with you.”

26 comments:

Lidstrom said...

You're just making that up. Please point to me one story of an atheist drowning that refused assistance.

Makarios said...

It's called an analogy. When you refuse the ONLY means of surviving exile from heaven, it's like refusing the only hand of rescue when drowning.

Quasar said...

Atheists call this grovelling.

I do not call this grovelling.

It sickens them.

I find it admirable. Jairus' was so concerned for his daughter that he was willing to put aside his own personal pride for the sake of something far more important. He showed humility.

Atheists would rather drown than reach out for the only hand that can save them.

In the event that this hypothetical was to eventuate, I would not choose to drown.

You are again demonstrating the ability to mischaracterise your opponents position. Please stop.

Quasar said...

Minor correction: that last sentence should read "You are again demonstrating an ability to mischaracterise others positions." As you are not engaged in debate with atheists, it is a misnomer to label them as your opponents.

Flute said...

Quasar: "You are again demonstrating the ability to mischaracterise your opponents position. Please stop."

But fighting strawmen is all Makarios has got!

Còmhradh said...

Why won't you beg Ahura Mazda for forgiveness? That’s all it takes. All one has to do is ask. All one has to do is humble yourself and say, “I was wrong. Please forgive me. Please save me.”

He is, after all, the Uncreated Creator.

Lidstrom said...

I was just messing with you. You don't have to be Jesus to forgive people. You don't have to be Christian. You don't even have to be religious.

There is no proof that Heaven exists, so not sure what case you're making. Where is Heaven, if it exists? It certainly isn't where people were once told it was, because scientific advances have actually shown us otherwise.

Flute said...

What's the difference between the Greek and Hebrew words for sky and Heaven?

Jill D said...

If you mean the difference between the Greek and Hebrew words for sky and the Greek and Hebrew words for Heaven - then none. Sky and heaven are the same word.

Rabhimself said...

'No one is so good that forgiveness isn't needed. No one is so evil that forgiveness isn't offered.'

I just had to get clarification on this - Adolf Hitler, Heinrich Himmler etc., men like that are offered forgiveness?

In his bunker, before killing himself, had he truly repented, Adolf Hitler would have been forgiven?

If he reached out to this saviour, jesus would forgive him?

Yet poor old bushy pygmy who has no idea of the concept of jesus christ, or christianity is fucked. A life full of non-worship, topped off by failure to seek for forgiveness results in him being sent to the depths of hell, while good ol' adolf is lapping it up in god's pad because he repented.

Please, enlighten me.

Makarios said...

What you really mean is "Adolf gets in while I don't? I've been good and he kills millions yet if he's sorry for what he's done and I'm not sorrry for the little bit of wrong that I've done, he's in and I'm out?"

First of all, who you are, not what you've done is what keeps you out of heaven. Check out John 3:18,36. All of us deserve hell and unless we do something to change that, hell is our destination.

The fact that you possess so little insight into your true character, the fact that you think you're better than others, including Hitler shows that you're still in your natural state.

The real question to be asked is, Why would God create and then save for heaven billions of people, when all of us deserve to be in hell.

God's love is scandalous. It's shocking. It is utterly just and fair. You don't want to be with God? He's not going to force you to be with Him.

Quasar said...

"What you really mean is "Adolf gets in while I don't? I've been good and he kills millions yet if he's sorry for what he's done and I'm not sorrry for the little bit of wrong that I've done, he's in and I'm out?"

You assume that Rabhimself asked this question in a selfish, personal format, when he explicitly worded it to refer to a tribesman who has not heard of christianity. This seems uncalled for, and causes one to wonder about your motives for doing so.

Rabhimself said...

" What you really mean is "Adolf gets in while I don't?" "

Excuse me? The subtitle to your blog is , 'No one is so good that forgiveness isn't needed. No one is so evil that forgiveness isn't offered.'

I'm trying to get clarification on this and from it you deduce that i think i am better than others?

How about you just answer the question Makarios, or is that too much to ask of you?

Your entire response there was completely off the rails. For a start, i don't think im getting in beacause in fact i don't think i'm going anywhere at all!

All of us deserve to go to hell? I thought the idea of Jesus was that he absolved all of our sins. If someone doesn't put a foot wrong in life i don't see how they can be condemned to hell.

Just answer the question please, Makarios. If Hitler repented sincerely and sought out forgiveness, would he be saved? Yet the millions that died before they could repent due to his instructions, are going to hell?

The insight i have to my own character has nothing to dow tih this, just answer. Also, how incredibly arrogant of you to think you can judge my character better than myself, when you don't even know me.

Makarios said...

“Just answer the question please”

“If Hitler repented sincerely and sought out forgiveness, he would be saved.”

I would think that you would be much more concerned about what will happen to people, such as yourself, who know exactly what happens to those who reject Jesus’ offer of salvation, yet reject it anyway.

Nevertheless, we are told two very important things:
1) “Since what may be known about God is plain to all of us because God has made it plain to all of us. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualitites - His eternal power and divine nature - have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made so that everyone is without excuse.”

This is saying that you can’t plead ignorance - "I didn’t know that God exists. I honestly thought that Everything could come from nothing by natural means."

2) “It is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the who will be declared righteous. Indeed, when Gentiles [bush people], who do not have the written law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the written law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.”

Abraham, Noah, Rahab - none knew about Jesus but all responded correctly with faith based on what they instinctively knew about God.

You or me or bush people will be judged fairly and justly on what we did with what we knew, NOT what we did with what we don’t know.

“From those who have been given much (you for example) much will be required. From those who have been given little, only a little will be required.”
==============
“when you don't even know me.”

Oh really? So tell me - do you think that you’re a better human being than was Hitler?
============
“i don't think im getting in beacause in fact i don't think i'm going anywhere at all!”

And because of that you were presenting a hypothetical situation. So -

Hypothetically, if heaven and hell existed, and based upon how good a person you are, do you believe that you deserve heaven or hell?

Hypothetically, if heaven and hell existed, and based upon how good a person they have been, do you believe that someone like Hitler deserves heaven or hell?

Based on your answer, do you or do you not think that you are better than other people?
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I thought the idea of Jesus was that he absolved all of our sins.”

You thought wrong. B’hai might teach that but Christianity does not. Jesus has made it possible for all to receive forgiveness. But if you reject that forgiveness, forgiveness will not be forced upon you.
=========
If someone doesn't put a foot wrong in life i don't see how they can be condemned to hell.”

No one like that has ever existed. Again, you believe in error that someone can be good enough to be good enough for heaven.

Flute said...

"You or me or bush people will be judged fairly and justly on what we did with what we knew, NOT what we did with what we don’t know."

Then isn't a bad idea to tell people about your god YHWH?

Rabhimself said...

Answer the damn question, Makarios.

According to you, if Hitler sincerely repented and seeked forgiveness before he died, is he or is he not in heaven right now?

I refuse to get deeply involved any further with anything you have said until you have the courtesy to answer my initial question.

Stop this evasive nonsense.

"I would think that you would be much more concerned about what will happen to people, such as yourself, who know exactly what happens to those who reject Jesus’ offer of salvation, yet reject it anyway."

What do you not understand about the fact that atheists do not believe in the need to accept salvation. We don't believe in it.

As for you're oh-so-clever question regarding whether or not i think i am a better person than Hitler, and hence you do know me - what a load of crap. Just because you know the answer to that question doesn't mean you know me, and doesn't give you the right to brandish me with the general statement that i think i'm better than others. If i asked you the same question you'd have the same answer.

If you don't give me a straight yes or no with adequate explanation to my initial question i'm going to accept that you cannot answer it, knowing full well the consequences of either answer are going to reflect negatively upon your beliefs.

Makarios said...

Raphimself -
Dude, take some deep breaths. I did answer the question. Read my post - I said:
“If Hitler repented sincerely and sought out forgiveness, he would be saved.”
How is that not an answer? If he sincerely repented Hitler would be in heaven right now. Does that offend you; that evil people are offered forgiveness?
============
"We don't believe in it."

So why do you keep talking about stuff you don't believe in?
============
"If i asked you the same question you'd have the same answer."

I don't think that I would give the same answer. But let's see. I do not think that I'm a better person than Hitler. Good is not measured in what we do but who we are. I believe and believe strongly that you and I and everyone else have the same "potential" for evil as did Hitler. Time and circumstance made the difference.
=============
Flute -
"Then isn't a bad idea to tell people about your god YHWH?"

That's a pretty decent thought. However, in this life we're going to suffer. It's just a fact of life. It is far, far better to suffer with Jesus in one's life than without. I've been a Christian for almost 30 years and I can say with confidence that my worst day with Jesus has been 1,000 times better than my best day without Him in my life. As the saying goes, "For Christians this life is as bad as it gets. For atheists, this life is as good as it gets."

Rabhimself said...

I seen that you wrote that, but deliberately had it in inverted commas. I wanted to have you come out with it.

Now that you have answered, if you cannot see the disgusting consequences that go hand in had with that, then you are twisted. You basically must concede that if he did repent, then he is in heaven, but the millions that never got the chance to repent, that are dead because of him, are in hell.

Your belief that it's not what you do but who you are that determines damnation or not is nothing short of ridiculous.

What do you mean by, who you are. A persons actions define who they are Makarios. How can you say that is not the case. Hitler was a genocidal megalomaniac to say the least.

If hell exists, he should be there no matter what he does to try and make up for his bad deeds.

The idea that a murdered infant - who is incapapble of seeking your so-called forgiveness- could possibly go to hell based on who they are is quite frankly shocking.

Makarios said...

"but the millions that never got the chance to repent, that are dead because of him, are in hell."

Who didn't have a chance to repent?
At minimum it takes about five seconds.
=============

A persons actions define who they are Makarios.”

Well, I would suggest that you have it backwards. Our behaviours are symptoms or demonstrations of who we are. That’s why we’re told, “For out of the heart comes murder, lying, stealing, coveting etc.” Hitler loved to be around children and animals when he had his picture taken. That didn't make him a good person. It made him someone who wanted to appear like a good person.

Our beliefs, our motives, our character determine what we do and why we do it. Otherwise what are we to do with those who do good things but only as a means of manipulating others? As humans we want to appear as having good virtues far more than actually having good virtues.
=================
If hell exists, he should be there”

Yes, and he probably is.
===========
“The idea that a murdered infant - who is incapable of seeking your so-called forgiveness- could possibly go to hell based on who they are is quite frankly shocking.”

And if it was true it WOULD be shocking. God knows when we are and are not able to deal appropriately with the knowledge that we have regarding His offer of salvation. It's called an age of accountability. An infant or someone born with diminished capacity for understanding the offer of salvation is not going to be as accountable as you and I.

Rabhimself, God is fair and just and loving. He has done absolutely everything possible to allow for both free will AND salvation. He died in your place so that you do not have to be eternally separated from Him - what we call hell. What He can't and won't do for you is force you to accept His offer of salvation. Only you the fix that.

Rabhimself said...

My oh my. Do you think your answers through?

Age of accountability? Where do you draw the line between accountability and non-accountability?

Also, i'd like to see you repent (even if it does only take 5 seconds) when you are succumbing to hydrogen cyanide.

Additionally, so if Hitler was introvertly the second coming of Jesus, but just WANTED to seem lik a bad guy - he'll go to heaven. It just gets worse and worse (as i expected) every time you answer.

Makarios said...

“Where do you draw the line between accountability and non-accountability?”

That’s up to God - not me.
============

Also, i'd like to see you repent (even if it does only take 5 seconds) when you are succumbing to hydrogen cyanide.”

Actually, you don’t need to wait until then. You could even do it today if you want. After all, you don’t know if you’ll even survive the night.
==========

“Additionally, so if Hitler was introvertly the second coming of Jesus”

When Jesus comes again, no one will wonder if it’s the real deal. “Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is the Lord of lords and King of kings.” It will happen “In the twinkling of an eye.”

Flute said...

"It's called an age of accountability."

Where in the Bible does this come from?

Abortion sends souls to Jesus quicker! Quick! kill everyone under the age of accountability to save them from the chance of Hell!
Your ideas are nonsense.

Makarios said...

"Your ideas are nonsense."

And yours are really good! This is the first positive thing I've heard about abortion. This could really turn things around for the pro abortion people. Do you have an agent?

Flute said...

Pro-abortion? Are there really people who want every one to get an abortion?

So where in the Bible does "age of accountability" come from?

Makarios said...

"So where in the Bible does "age of accountability" come from?"

THAT is a good quesion. I'll have to get back to you on that. Huh. That's one thing I never thought that I'd have to know. I will get back to you. Thanks for asking.

Makarios said...

Mmm, it looks like a case of people simply using - If A then B.

If God is just, then no one who is innocent will be punished.