Wednesday, July 8, 2009

Atheist Probabilities

atheist physicist Hubert Yockey -

"It's always those who do not understand probabilities who think that the highly improbable probably happened."

Information Theory, Evolution, and the Origin of Life (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2005) 117.

13 comments:

Rabhimself said...

Well Makarios, wouldn't you deem the existence of a divine creator who is omniscient, omnipresent , omnipotent and watches over us all, keeping a record - to be highly imrprobable?

We atheists do, much more improbable than life occurring naturally, so given the choice between a divine creator (for whom there is no hard evidence, on top of introducing further complexities to the scenario) and natural occurrence - it is an easy decision.

Còmhradh said...

atheist physicist Hubert Yockey

You mean the same Hubert Yockey who sits on the Board of Advisors of Leadership University?

Huh, I guess they're hurting for contributors.

Thesauros said...

Yes, Rabhimself the existence of a supernatural Creator is highly improbable. However,

Something coming into existence without a cause is IMPOSSIBLE

Everything coming from nothing by natural means is IMPOSSIBLE

Matter existing from infinity is IMPOSSIBLE

Matter creating itself is IMPOSSIBLE

If I have to choose between improbable and impossible, well, . . .

I don't know anything about Leadership University or the Yockey that teaches there.

Thesauros said...

Hmm, sounds like it might be the same guy. Why would that mean they're hard up for a Board Member?

Rabhimself said...

Makarios, nobody has a clear understanding of what was before the big bang.

All these phrases you throw out: Something coming into existence without a cause, everything coming from nothing etc. - you sound like you KNOW what existed before the big bang.

Matter creating itself is impossible - again, you KNOW the matter wasnt already there before hand? You can't make claims like this.

Basically, like so many other religious believers, you can't accept that our universe occurred naturally, so you attribute it to the supernatural.

We don't understand the Mpemba effect fully yet, i guess we should just say god is causing that too?

If i ask you,what caused or created your god - you will tell me something along the lines of nothign did, he is infinite, always existent....

These answers to you are acceptbale for god, but not for our universe. You are dead certain that our universe was created - if the universe merits a creator, then your god certainly does too.

Are you familiar with occams razor? By introducing a creator into the equation you are needlessly increasing the complexity of an already complex scenario. Doing this is irrational, illogical and unreasonable.

Còmhradh said...

Hmm, sounds like it might be the same guy. Why would that mean they're hard up for a Board Member?

Why would a bunch of Christian apologists dedicated to pushing a religious education agenda recruit an atheist to sit on their board of advisors and write for their journal?

Furthermore, why would any atheist agree to join such an institution where atheism is denounced and ridiculed?

Isn't it just more likely that you slap "atheist" onto anyone who writes something you can take out of context to support some convoluted argument against atheists (not atheism, which you have proven time and time again that you have no argument against).

Còmhradh said...

the existence of a supernatural Creator is highly improbable

Something coming into existence without a cause is IMPOSSIBLE

Everything coming from nothing by natural means is IMPOSSIBLE

Matter existing from infinity is IMPOSSIBLE

Matter creating itself is IMPOSSIBLE


Actually, all of these things are probable. Some moreso than others.

Perhaps you missed the conversation about quantum theory in the comments you allow but apparently do not read.

Thesauros said...

Rhapsody -
Makarios, nobody has a clear understanding of what was before the big bang.”

That’s true. But we DO know quite a lot about what WASN’T before the Big Bang.
================

“you KNOW the matter wasnt already there before hand? You can't make claims like this.”

Sure I can! I feel free to make these claims in the presence of atheists because science itself makes these claims. Big Bang cosmology (I’m confident that one day you street atheists are going to get this) states clearly that prior to Big Bang there WASN'T:
any Space,
any Time,
any MATTER and
no laws of physics / science.
There was nothing natural in existence to form a natural cause for the singularity.

And because an atheist would never contradict what science has to say (snerk), I say these things boldly and with confidence.
==============

"Basically, like so many other religious believers, you can't accept that our universe occurred naturally.”

What’s the evidence my friend? Hmmm? Because you a priori reject the supernatural it HAD to be natural. Is that it? Well guess what? The evidence is pointing AWAY from the natural and TOWARD the supernatural.
================

If i ask you,what caused or created your god - you will tell me something along the lines of nothign did, he is infinite, always existent....”

Hey!! You’re getting it! Just like if matter COULD be eternal you’d be able to say, nothing created matter, it’s always existed.”
Right?

Except - too bad - so sad - matter can’t have always existed because we also know from philosophy and science that the material infinite cannot and does not exist. So, we’re back to the arrow that points toward God.
============

Are you familiar with occams razor?”

Oh baby am - I - ever. And that is why adding a dozen or more hypothetical propositions to a cosmology that already fits the evidence is wrong, wrong, and wrong again. In the words of a bright young man, “Doing this is irrational, illogical and unreasonable.” :-)

Comrade -
Actually, all of these things are probable."

Probable? Pfft! And perhaps you missed what I wrote that showed that QM has no such occurances. Any particles that show up for a trillionth of a second come from and return to a vacuum which is NOT nothing. Instead it's a sea of fluctuating energy the is endowed with a rich structure that in turn is fully subjected and obedient to the laws of physics.

I don't expect better from you, Conrad but it's still pretty sad.

Rabhimself said...

Is there any point in even trying to debate with you?

- "That’s true. But we DO know quite a lot about what WASN’T before the Big Bang."

We do? Since when? Show me your source that proves this as fact?

Have you ever heard of the theory that the big bang resulted in the transformation of energy into matter? Again, its just a theory.

The evidence points towards the supernatural? Sorry, what? No scientist will by default grant the supernatural because they cannot find a natural explanation - this is exactly what you are doing. You have no evidence that points towards the supernatural. You have some statistical arguments that in your opinion point towards god. In my opinion, it just makes god seem even more improbable, hence my reference to Occam's razor. Yet you cringeworthingly think that the introduction of god does not go against Occam's razor, but in fact satisfies it.


Something that hacks me off about you Makarios is that you talk like you know physics inside out. If you don't know great details about the subject you can do nothing more than parrot statements that you don't understand. You are most definitely not a scientist, this can be deduced by merely reading your posts - so why do you always talk like you are one, and that you know everything about quantum mechanics with regards to how probable/possible things are at that level? I'd go as far to bet that your scientific qualifications end at a secondary school level at best.

What would the discovery of the Higg's Boson mean to you?

Another thing is that you are extremely condescending. It's hard to believe you held down a job as a counsellor given this trait you have. "Hey! You're getting it!" - who do you think you are talking to?

Delusion is all i see when i read what you write. I don't think anything could shake you from your faith. You will hilariously discard all other deities, past and present, yet continue to believe in your own, when there is no more evidence for him than there is for the other umpteen gods. You just convince yourself that of course there is such evidence.

You truly are unbelievable - a grade A example of religious delusion personified.

Thesauros said...

Rhapsody -

"What would the discovery of the Higg's Boson mean to you?"

Um let's see - An elemental particle that people are spending billions to find and atheists are crossing their fingers in the hopes that the existence of this particle will prove something along the lines of “no God.” Let's wait and see what happens shall we?
"The evidence," as people like you hardly ever say, "is not yet in."
===========

"Hey! You're getting it!" - who do you think you are talking to?”

Umm, I think I’m talking to a guy who up till now has been incapable of “getting it.” Have I missed something?
============

“Delusion is all i see when i read what you write. I don't think anything could shake you from your faith.”

Thirty years ago? It could be done.
Twenty years ago? Probably not. Today? Not a chance.

I'd take a bullet for the object of my faith. Would you do the same for atheism? Is that why you’re here? To convert me?
==============
“You will hilariously discard all other deities, past and present, yet continue to believe in your own, when there is no more evidence for him than there is for the other umpteen gods.”

Oh I think you’re wrong on that one. I don’t discard any deities. In fact, if you knew why I believe in all other gods, you’d understand why I reject your atheism.

Oh, of course I'm not a scientist. But I do like to read. Am I not allowed to pluck a fact here or there along my journey?

Rabhimself said...

Its not that you are plucjing facts, its that you are doing it in ignorance. You don't understand quantum mechanics so how can you instruct people on what is possible/probable and what is not? You are parroting what you read without really comprehending it.

"Oh I think you’re wrong on that one. I don’t discard any deities. In fact, if you knew why I believe in all other gods, you’d understand why I reject your atheism."

Is that supposed to be a joke? You believe in every god ever conceived by man? What a pathetic attempt to reverse Stephen Roberts' quote - “I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.”

I'm actually struggling to take you seriously now.

Thesauros said...

“You don't understand quantum mechanics”

Well, I know it well enough to know that what you are proposing is deceptive. I don't know if it's deliberate or just out of ignorance. I know it well enough to know that what you are proposing is NOT an example of something coming from nothing. And, for what it’s worth, I don’t see any need, at the moment to know more than that.
==========
“Is that supposed to be a joke?”

Not at all. I believe there is a lot more to reality than what meets the eye. I believe that what other religions are worshipping as gods are actually demons. Because I believe in a supernatural world I dismiss your atheism.

You see Ramrod, According to atheism the universe doesn’t have an explanation of its existence. They say that “It just happened.” Over a dozen theories and over a dozen more variations on those theories have come and gone in a vain attempt to rule out God as the Cause of a beginning universe.

Despite the current scientific knowledge described in other posts, atheists persist in stating that either matter has always existed (impossible) or that matter created itself (also impossible). Why do they do this?

Because:
. If there is an explanation of the universe’s existence, then atheism is not true. And that is because the only explanation that fits the evidence of how and why the universe came into being is Creator God. That is why Richard Dawkins himself has lately admitted that a good case could be made for the existence of a Deistic God.

Actually, I believe that some day there won’t be any atheists. There will be people for God and people against God but there won’t be anyone who believes that God doesn’t exist. And, irony of ironies it will be science that will prove the existence of God.

As one atheist single mother of two said recently, “A big fuck-you to anyone who believes in original sin. The christian god, should it exist, should be fought and resisted by every MORAL person who has ever lived.”

Mmm, I’m wandering off topic . . .

. Because of overwhelming scientific evidence, most atheists do grudgingly admit that the universe does indeed have a beginning. Unfortunately for atheists, it can be said with absolute confidence that no cosmogonic model has been:
As repeatedly verified in its predictions,

As corroborated by attempts at its falsification,

As concordant with empirical discoveries, and

As philosophically coherent as the Standard Big Bang Creation Event Model.

. Hence, most atheists are implicitly committed to God being the explanation of why the universe exists.

This is why I call atheists irrational agnostics.
===========
“I'm actually struggling to take you seriously now.”

Take me seriously? Oh, don’t do that. That would be a mistake.

Anonymous said...

Take me seriously? Oh, don’t do that. That would be a mistake.

THANK YOU!

Not that I do take anything you have to say seriously; it is, however, good to know that you don't actually believe any of it.

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