This morning's post was going to be my last one until we got back from holidays. However my mind has been kicked into gear by an atheist whose line of logic goes as follows:
. Bad things happen to people
. Therefore (and obviously to him) God does not exist
That's a pretty typical example of reasoning for atheists. In fact, those people who have not experienced God’s love, those who don’t know His forgiveness and mercy and grace and peace in the midst of life’s storms simply cannot conceive of a God who is good. They look around and see famine and war and heartache beyond imagination. They see sickness and children being abused and they witness violence and catastrophe after catastrophe. They see these things and say that it is impossible for a God of Love to exist. In fact, as atheists say, “God does not exist.”
Well, to look at pain and suffering and conclude that God does not exist is not a flow of logical thinking. One cannot watch the evening news and logically conclude from that evidence that God does not exist. On the other hand, one can look at the horrors that confront millions of people day in and day out and conclude that the kind of God that we might want to exist, doesn’t. We could conclude that God certainly doesn’t do things the way that we would do things if we were God.
Had we not already experienced the reality of God’s love, my wife and I could have looked at the death of our only biological child and say that a God of love does not exist.
. We could look at our brain damaged children and say that God isn’t capable of preventing such problems.
. I could look back on my 46 years of crippling arthritis and say with confidence that God may in fact be a sadist.
. We could suffer along with our youngest adopted son who is in the bottom 5th percentile intellectually and say if there was a God who started things, He’s long since left the building.
Yes, if Wendy and I didn’t already experience the palpable presence of a loving God day in and day out, if we had only experienced all the other sorrows and difficulties that come with this existence then there is a good chance that we might say that based on the life that we’ve been dealt, God is not a God of love. As many, many people have done, we could conclude that any God that would condemn people to an eternity of unparalleled agony is in no way a God of love. We could say that. It isn’t true, but for some people there is enough evidence to allow them to turn their backs on God.
For the sake of argument, I'm going to propose that God does exist. He is the Creator. He is the First Cause. He is a monster and a savage, sadistic Creator who allows sorrow and evil to spread like gangrene. Everything that Chris Hitchens and Dennet and Dawkins and others have said about Him is true. Creator God is cold - heartless - manipulative. He’s the ‘God of the gottcha’ as some describe Him. Yes, He’s all these things and more - but - He is God - He is real - He exists.
Not only does He exist, it’s also true that things are turning out just like the Bible has said. History is winding down. World events, from naming Cyrus the Great by the prophet Isaiah, 160 years before Cyrus came on the scene, from the prophesied combination of widespread denial of God’s existence in concert with widespread acceptance and promotion of the sexually disoriented, and finally to the world-wide persecution of the Christian Church that is well on its way, all are playing out as only a real God could predict and bring about.
God is real and you don’t like Him one bit. So be it. But there is a problem isn’t there? There’s a dilemma to confront. Something important needs to be dealt with. If God is real, and there’s a great deal of evidence that points to His existence, then that means that Hell is real too. Like it or not, in fact hate it all you want, our Creator God says emphatically that we either get on side with Him or we’re gonna pay - big time.
Get on side? You mean there is a chance to escape this kind of punishment / torture?
That’s what the Bible says. That, in fact is what God said when He came to earth in the form of Jesus. The Bible says that “God was in Jesus Christ reconciling the people of the world to Himself.” God seems to have created not only Hell. He has created a way to escape going to Hell. He has said that if we place our trust in Jesus, if we obey Jesus then He, God, will take us to paradise. He describes Heaven as a place that has no more pain or sorrow, no more fear or guilt or despair. In fact Heaven is exactly the type of place that atheists say God should have made for us now - if He actually existed, that is.
But if Jesus is God and if God is a monster and if I’m to obey this monster, don’t I have to compromise my own set of values to come on side with Him? Well, no actually. While hell is nothing more than a means for justice to be served (and even atheists are in favour of justice), there seems to be a side of God that we cannot in any way describe as monstrous. In fact, this Jesus, who is God, seems to actually be a person of Love.
So here we are:
. Pain and evil do not negate God’s existence. The existence of pain and evil actually confirms the Bible’s diagnosis of our nature.
. God allows pain and evil to exist for a short time. As it turns out, He uses it for our eternal good.
. God is a God of love who is willing to rescue us, at His own expense, from an eternity of torment.
. Because He is a God of Love, it is logical to assume that the horrific punishment that unforgiven sinners will one day incur upon themselves is only difficult for us to understand now, because we don’t comprehend the monstrosity of sin. In fact we accept sin. In many cases we celebrate and nurture sin, even as it destroys us and our relationships.
. Because He is a God of Love, there is a reasonable and logical explanation for the presence of pain and evil in our world now. We don't understand pain, even though we (both religious and non religious) can in hindsight see the good that it has brought about in our own lives. We don’t understand pain, but Jesus explains how it is only through suffering that the believer is changed from a self-obsessed, self-loving horror show to someone who is able to love others with an intentional, deliberate, willed, volitional Christ-like love.
Like Him or hate Him, God is real. God is a force that needs to be acknowledged and reckoned with. Just because you don’t like a certain reality doesn’t mean that you can make it go away by pretending that it doesn’t exist.
This might be your last day to decide which side that you’re going to be on. I can tell you from experience, as can almost two billion other believers, that the word Love hardly describes how wonderfully God treats those who have turned their allegiance to Him. Blessing upon blessing fills my days. Mercy upon mercy envelopes me as I live in a hostile and angry world. I and other Christians are not promised, nor do we experience freedom from the sorrows of the world. The reason that we no longer interpret those struggles as coming from a “monster” God, is that we, as adopted members of God’s family, are now immersed in His loving presence. We’re given His guidance and counsel and freedom from guilt. We have been set free from the power of sin to destroy us.
Believe what you want about God. Boldly claim, if you wish, that you would never worship a God who allows such pain in the world or who would cause such a great punishment for the "intellectual" position you now hold. You are free to do that, but you will also experience the consequences of that decision. Or, if you are wise, you are free to accept God as Lord of your life and experience the consequences of that decision. Good luck on your journey.
“One day every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.”
Oh, and for what it’s worth:
Because God is all powerful, He CAN rid the universe of evil.
Because God is all good, He WILL rid the universe of evil.
Obviously there is still evil present in the universe. All that means is that -
God CAN and WILL one day rid the universe of evil.
He promised to do that and He showed us His bloodied corpse as a deposit and guarantee.
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15 comments:
Mak, I can understand how belief in God gives you strength to deal with the adversity you have been dealt (or have chosen to receive) in life.
I liked this post. Have you ever read Stephen Law's The God of Eth? http://stephenlaw.blogspot.com/2007/03/god-of-eth.html
There are two problems with your argument:
1. Wanting to believe something does not make it so. I want to win the lottery this week but that certainly doesn't mean it is going to happen.
2. If you hold a reasonable doubt in something (i.e. the existence of God or winning the lottery), there is no conceivable way that you can will yourself to believe it without being insincere. That is why Pascal's Wager is a joke. Even if someone were to accept your argument and desperately desire eternal salvation, they can't have it unless they accept Jesus as their personal saviour. Obviously, you can't do that unless you believe he exists and died for your sins. Your First Cause argument doesn't get you anywhere near that proposition.
In summary, if you are right and God exists, he has forever damned any of his creations who have been unfortunate enough to be bestowed with a critical sense of reason. It is really no different than if you tell me that I will be damned for eternity unless I believe that I will win the lottery tonight or any other state of affairs that I, after evaluating all of the available evidence, consider to be improbable. Even if you could convince we that what you suggest is probable, it would be insincere of me to believe it as a matter of faith.
* In fact, as atheists say, “God does not exist.” *
I would say "Gods are highly improbable and I've never encountered an argument for them(forget evidence) that I couldn't dissect with some logic and reason".
The straw men and generalizations that frequent your writing are appalling to me and I find it hard to continue reading after I encounter the first instance. Unfortunately, that's how most of your passages begin and seem to be the basis for most of your "arguments".
Mak,
As the atheist missionary told you, this is not something we decide. This is what we perceive as true. I have read the very same arguments you make, and many others. I used them myself a long time ago. At some point I understood better, I realized better, I learned better. And no, there is no argument Mak, At least I have not heard any, that incontrovertibly points to any gods (let alone your God).
There are many things that point against proposed gods (such as yours), which I rather spare you (I do not mind if you want to believe, and who am I but an instant of consciousness in the incommensurable Universe).
So, you have to see. It is not a matter of "wanting" to believe or not wanting. It is a matter of whether we see such belief as convincing.
Have a most excellent holiday.
G.E.
(Not just *incontrovertibly*, but none is without an obvious fallacy, none is even close to slightly convincing.)
That's a pretty typical example of reasoning for atheists
Here's a little game we can play: try to make your point, whether it's an argument for or against something, in as few words as possible.
I'll bet you can't do so without insulting the people who disagree with you...
"So, you have to see. It is not a matter of "wanting" to believe or not wanting. It is a matter of whether we see such belief as convincing."
Get education you have just proven your own process of reason to be false. Because in that process of reason you deny any personal responsibility for your action(i.e. not believing). If you base your belief on logic then you first must take responsibility for believing the way in which you do. For example, if you run a red light and are pulled over and ticketed you wouldn't tell the officer it's not a matter of me running the red light or not running the red light its a matter of convincing me that the light was red. That's illogical and ludicrous.
David, the police officer would not ticket me for running the red light if I could prove that I could not see the light. Based on your "logic", God doesn't give a shit whether you can see the light or not. Those who are blind to his light are damned. If God exists, he is an exceptionally cruel judge, jury and executioner.
dave,
Thanks for your effort, but no. I guess I should have explained better, but if you read The Atheist Missionary's post (which I referred to), you would perhaps understand. there is no flaw on my reasoning. I did not say that your God would deem me innocent. After all, you have repeatedly say, as TAM reminds you in his/her answer to you, that your God does not give a damn whether I could believe it to exist or not.
I cannot take responsibility for you guys exposing flawed arguments for the existence of God. That I can see the problems in those arguments is not my fault, is it? I was not looking for reasons not to believe. I know many Christian denominations believe that we reject God to avoid accountability for our sins, and that everything is a sin. A very nice trick so that, even if my life is quite clean and healthy, you can still claim that I do not want the accountability, because even detesting some person for a fempto-second is the same as murder. to which I would answer that my sins are then too boring to be worth eternal torment and damnation. I wonder if this gives you any thought for pause.
In any event, it is not my fault that there is no even slightly convincing evidence. It is not my fault that the arguments have such obvious flaws.
I know I repeated.
Can you understand this even a little bit?
G.E.
I find it kind of funny how defensive your guys responses were, and how you assume that you always are more educated than those who respond it's quite comical actually. You have been beaten at your own game.
Dear anonymous,
Please do not call Mak any names. I try to be educated. Even if his arguments are that flawed, you do not need to rub it in to him.
G.E.
I wasn't talking about Mak I was talking about you other guys!
What about those of us who weren't lucky enough to be adopted by you?
My biological parents were heroin addicts. I was raised in foster care for most of my life. Christian foster homes, I might add.
According to you, I'm doomed to go to Hell for something I had no control over. According to your god, the sins of the son are inherited from the father. My bio parents were heroin addicts. Although I don't follow in their footsteps, I am responsible for their sin, according to your religion's teachings.
All I can say is this: Your god sucks.
Anonymous,
your comment is contradictory then. Only Mak has been the only one assuming to be more educated than the rest of us. Only his arguments have failed.
G.E.
"According to you, I'm doomed to go to Hell for something I had no control over."
I think that you're a little mixed up on this point. There is only one reason for people being eternally separated from Creator God. That reason is rejecting God's offer of salvation.
Me - Would you like these free tickets to that concert you'd been asking about?
You - No. I don't want them. Oh, and by the way. It's your fault that I don't get to go to the concert.
============
"According to your god, the sins of the son are inherited from the father."
The consequences of our parent's behaviours are often visited upon the children for many generations. That's just life. Blaming God will do nothing to fix it. However, on Judgment Day you will not have to answer for anyone's actions save your own.
=========
"All I can say is this: Your god sucks."
Your Creator, Lord and potential Saviour died, took upon Himself the His own wrath toward sin so that you can spend eternity in paradise. You can be forgiven, freed from real guilt and be enveloped in His love from now until forever. That kind of love hardly sucks!
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