Wednesday, August 26, 2009

What Do You Think of That?

What do you think of a book that predicts - spot on - the rise, the fall and the rise again of one of the most insignificant countries of the world?

What do you think of a book that predicts - spot on - that this insignificant country would one day become the most influential country in the world? A country around which the safety of all the other nations of the world rotates. This too is foretold.

What do you think of a book that predicts - spot on - the coming Messiah; right from the town He would be born into, to the race He would be born into, to the manner of His death?

What do you think of a book that predicts - soon to be fulfilled - that one day it will be declared wrong to eat meat? And this, predicted thousands of years ago when animal sacrifice and animal consumption was a daily occurrence.

Of course, if it was Nostradamus or some such character making these prophecies, even atheists would be all over it. They'd be oooing and aaaawing and saying, "Did you read this? What does he say is going to happen next?"

Since it's the Bible making these and other incredibly accurate prophesies, well, these intelligent people just ignore it and go on with their day.

16 comments:

The Atheist Missionary said...

That's amazing! So all these things happened without anyone knowing about the book? Oh .... I see. Everyone read the book and then did what it said was going to happen. I thought that was called a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Glen20 said...

Do you think I haven't examined prophecies in the Bible?
Do you think that atheists haven't examined the prophecies in the Bible?
Have you read the pamphlet "Remarkable Prophecies in the Koran?" The Christian prophecies are just as remarkable.

Glen20 said...

"self-fulfilling prophecy."

We even have Jesus saying that he must do certain things "to fulfill the prophecies."

It's worse than that. It looks like the Gospel writers, when looking for information about Jesus' history, just went through Hebrew scripture with this mindset:
Since we know Jesus is the Messiah and the prophecies say the Messiah does X therefore Jesus must have done X.

Unfortunately, they used Greek translations of the Hebrew scriptures so the same mistranslations in the Greek turn up in the Gospels!

(Virgin birth, two donkeys, etc...)

As to the "insignificant country" mentioned; let's see - major religions think the country is the most significant country in the world, world leaders belong to the major religions that teach this... you can see where I'm going with this.

Flute said...

With regards to the "two donkeys", the authors of the Septuagint took Hebrew poetic parallelism (i.e. repetition of the same idea in different words) and translated it literally.
Many people believe the author of Mathew used the text of Mark as a basis for his account. In this case, the author must have known the Septuagint's rending of Zechariah because he mistakes poetic parallelism for literalism.

Flute said...

Scratch the word "literalism" and replace it with "a prophecy to be taken literally"

JD Curtis said...

Glen, TAM, check this out when you have a chance to Re: Bible prophecies

JD Curtis said...

Oh, I forgot to credit it. It's from Dr D James Kennedy's archive.

Jeff said...

JD, I stopped reading when he started talking about Tyre. He says that the prophecy stated it would be destroyed, the walls levelled, etc. etc., but he doesn't mention that it specifically says that Nebuchadnezzar would do it.

v. 7, "For thus says the Lord GOD: ‘Behold, I will bring against Tyre from the north Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, king of kings, with horses, with chariots, and with horsemen, and an army with many people."

He conveniently leaves that verse out because he knows that did not come true. Nebuchadnezzar attacked the city but didn't finish the job - Alexander the Great did, as he mentions. But if Ezekiel said Nebby would do it, and Nebby didn't, that is a failed prophecy, plain and simple.

I don't like it when people lie to me. And that's what Dr. Kennedy just did.

JD Curtis said...

As for the prophecy found in Ezekiel 26, the difference between a believer and a skeptic can boil down to a single word - the word "they" in verse 12.

The skeptics contend that the word "they" in verse 12 refers to Nebuchadnezzar's men in verses 7-11. And if that were true, then one could argue convincingly that the prophecy was not fulfilled.

But, the believers, including myself, contend that the word "they" in verse 12 refers to the "many nations" in verse 3 and the "nations" in verse 5. And if this is true, then one could argue convincingly that the prophecy was fulfilled. With this rendering of the word "they", Tyre was supposed to be attacked by a succession of nations, like the sea casting up its waves, one at a time, over time. And Tyre was indeed attacked by a succession of nations over time. Since the days of Nebuchadnezzar, Tyre has been conquered or ruled over by the Greeks, the Persians, the Romans, the Crusaders and the Arabs, who destroyed the city, again, in 1291.


Click here to read the full text if youre interested. If your mind is already made up, then don't.

Chris Mackey said...

The skeptics contend that the word "they" in verse 12 refers to Nebuchadnezzar's men in verses 7-11.

As any person who can read would think...

But, the believers, including myself, contend that the word "they" in verse 12 refers to the "many nations" in verse 3 and the "nations" in verse 5.

But if you pretend -this- word means -that-... and wear your special magic glasses...

Wait a sec. What about Tyre never being rebuilt? ANd Nebuchadnezzar destroying Egypt?

Let me fill in what i reckon happened here. Ezekiel is speaking during the war that Nebuchadnezzar is fighting, he says Nebuchadnezzar will win, 'cos that's what it looks like'll happen. It doesn't happen. Ezekiel says Nebuchadnezzar'll do Egypt instead.
No luck.

Chris Mackey said...

Of course, if it was Nostradamus or some such character making these prophecies, even atheists would be all over it. They'd be oooing and aaaawing and saying, "Did you read this? What does he say is going to happen next?"

i'd be saying this Nostradamus is so vague it isn't worth listening to. I don't think athieists go for that supernatural stuff. The way I reckon is if it's REAL it's NATURAL. If it's IMAGINARY it's SUPERNATURAL. If ESP or something was real, it'd be natural.

Jeff said...

Well big whoop, then, JD. So Ezekiel's prophecy then boils down to, "Tyre will be destroyed...at some point...by someone." So what? At the rate cities around there got attacked and destroyed, it's not a huge stretch to say it would get destroyed at some point. By watering down the prophecy and making it more vague, you destroy the intended effect - to wow everyone with how accurate it is.

You know what would have been an amazing prophecy? Ezekiel saying, "Alright, on such and such a day, there will be this guy, Alexander. He'll be in charge of the Greek army, but he'll actually be a Macedonian. And he is going to decide to make a big land bridge. Isn't that cool? I think it's pretty cool. He's going to finish the job that Nebuchadnezzar started, so don't think that it's Nebby that's going to completely destroy the city. That's what Alex is gonna do."

If a guy could write that down hundreds of years before the event, I would be impressed. As it stands, all that is being done is mistaking metaphor for accuracy.

Makarios said...

This will be frustrating for PF because I don’t have the source. I remember reading that Alexander the Great read Daniel 8 and when he got to verse 21 he literally fell to his knees. He was just a tad more with it than our current crop of atheists.

JD Curtis said...

therefore thus says the Lord GOD, 'Behold, I am against you, O Tyre, and I will bring up many nations against you, as the sea brings up its waves. Ezekiel 26:3

Does this or does this not contain the words "many nations"?

'They will destroy the walls of Tyre and break down her towers; and I will scrape her debris from her and make her a bare rock....I will make you a bare rock; you will be a place for the spreading of nets.. Ezeliel 26:4 & 14

Do you think Dr Kennedy was lying when he said One of our own members visited the city of Tyre. She had taken a lot of pictures of New Tyre and when she came back, she showed them to me. They were pictures of nets spread out to dry on the flat rock of what once was the proud city of Tyre. The prophet Ezekiel had said 250 years before that it would be scraped and become like the top of a rock and would become a place for the spreading of nets. Again, how did the prophet know?

Answer me those 2 questions before we look at other passages from this chapter

Glen20 said...

"on the flat rock of what once was the proud city of Tyre."

There is no flat rock where the once proud city of Tyre is. The city is still there. It's bigger. A far cry from never being rebuilt.

JD Curtis said...

Glen, a simple search turned up this site that has more information on the subject than you could possibly hope for.