Thursday, August 13, 2009

Not Enough Evidence!

Someone has stolen my book. My, “Why I’m Not A Christian,” book by Bertrand Russel is missing.

(((Deep breath))) I think Russel was the guy who said, “If I encounter God after I die and He asks me why I never believed, I will say, “Sir You didn’t provide me with enough evidence,” or something like that. I doubt that Russel said anything of the kind but, whatever.

If he had, I believe that God would have said, “Sir, there was no point in showing you ANY evidence. I’ve known since before you were created that you would remain a sceptic for the duration of your life on earth. I’ve known since before you were born that you’d convince 100's of thousands of people to reject Me. That’s a lot to answer for Mr. Russel. On the other hand, you and all those who followed your lead had as much evidence as the next guy. In fact you’ve had much MORE evidence than many who have in the past and who will in the future become believers. It's you’re arrogance that compelled you to ignore the evidence that I placed before you.

You see Mr. Russel, you aren’t lost because of a lack of evidence. You’re lost because of an act of your will - period. And, as you can see, you’re not alone. Hell is filled to the brim with people who would have maintained their scepticism even if they’d been born to Christian parents, even if they’d gone to Sunday School, even if they’d read the Bible and memorised the most relevant verses, even if they’d heard the Gospel message hundreds of times, even if they’d met Jesus face to face and heard Him preach for three years straight. No, Mr. Russel, you and those like you would reject My offer of salvation no matter how much information or evidence about Me that you had.

You know now, in hind sight, that any and all evidence that you had about Me you simply ignored or rejected. Evidence for My existence interfered with your plans so you cast it aside like useless garbage. And you thought pride was a good thing. I tried to warn you Russel. I tried. Sucks to be you, I guess.

It seems that there’s something about grace that turns the stomach of people like you. And there’s nothing that I can do about that. I usually put people like you in areas that will never hear the Gospel. Did you know that? It's that whole "Casting pearls to swine" thing. I don't like doing that. It's such a waste. Anyhow, I know you complained about this. You even used it as an excuse to reject Me. Nevertheless, regardless of where they live, those who WILL respond positively to My call of love, My wooing, My appealing to their deepest needs and longings, those people will also be provided by Me with enough grace to accept My offer of salvation. No one will miss the opportunity to spend eternity in paradise with Me.

Only those who WANT to live apart from Me, like Flute for example, will be allowed to live apart from Me. I've done everything that I can to prevent it, but some are simply determined to go their own way. In fact, I’ve presented so much evidence that you really have to work at it to deny My existence. Like Jesus said, “If you wind up in hell, it’ll be over My dead body.”

You cry the blues about how unfair it is, but no one, including you Mr. Russel, who rejects the amount of evidence they’ve been given, would have believed in Me or accepted My offer of salvation even if they’d been given more evidence. It's the same principle regardless of whether you've never heard the Gospel OR whether you've grown up immersed in it. All who are willing to be saved will be brought safely home.

Whether it’s you or Flute or anyone else Russel, anyone who doesn’t respond to the evidence of Creation, wouldn’t respond to the Gospel either. So, be on your way Russel. You requested a life without Me, and a life without Me is what you shall have.”

20 comments:

Flute said...

I love it when you put words into deities' mouths. :-)

Why I am not a Christian

"“Sir, there was no point in showing you ANY evidence. I’ve known since before you were created that you would remain a sceptic for the duration of your life on earth."

You see Mr. Russel, you aren’t lost because of a lack of evidence. You’re lost because of an act of your will - period.

I don't think belief is an act of will. As an exercise try believing, really believing not pretending, that there is a living breathing unicorn in your room. Belief is not an act of will.

Evidence for My existence interfered with your plans so you cast it aside like useless garbage. And you thought pride was a good thing. I tried to warn you Russel. I tried. Sucks to be you, I guess.

LOL, he didn't try very hard. This is an omnipotent being we are talking about.

It seems that there’s something about grace that turns the stomach of people like you. And there’s nothing that I can do about that. I usually put people like you in areas that will never hear the Gospel.

Sorry?

My call of love

His call of love is backed up with threats!

Only those who WANT to live apart from Me, like Flute for example, will be allowed to live apart from Me. I've done everything that I can to prevent it,

LOLed again. Thanks for writing me into this! "I've done everything that I can to prevent it" Reminds me of Ned Flander's parents, "Yeah. You gotta help us, Doc. We've tried nothin' and we're all out of ideas."
An omnipotent being could do more...

Like Jesus said, “If you wind up in hell, it’ll be over My dead body.

Citation needed.

"Whether it’s you or Flute or anyone else Russel, anyone who doesn’t respond to the evidence of Creation, wouldn’t respond to the Gospel either.

If you have evidence existence is a "creation" the scientists would like to hear it. Let's see this evidence in peer-reviewed journals!

So, be on your way Russel. You requested a life without Me, and a life without Me is what you shall have.”"

Into the lake of fire! Because I love you!

Makarios said...

The act of will being referred to is the deliberate denial of God’s existence, in the face of evidence, and the deliberate rejection of His offer of salvation.
==============

"LOL, he didn't try very hard."

Your eternity is at stake and you think that laughing is the appropriate response?

I agree with Plato, who said, “God has presented just enough evidence so that those who are looking for Him will be able to find and Him, and just enough evidence so that those who wish to avoid Him will not be able to find Him accidentally.”

In light of that, I should have said, “I did everything I could without overpowering your free-will choice to accept My existence or to deny My existence.
=============

"His call of love is backed up with threats!"

So when you tell your children to not play in the street, or else . . . is that love or is it a threat?

When you tell your children to not accept rides from strangers or else . . . is that love or a threat?

When you tell your children to use condoms or else . . ., is that love or a threat?

When God says accept my offer of salvation from hell and the free gift of eternity in paradise, or else you'll wind up in hell, is that love or a threat?

Why is it that atheists view warning of impending disaster a bad thing?
==================

"An omnipotent being could do more..."

Not without turning you into a robot. Do you think that you'd like that?
==========

Like Jesus said, “If you wind up in hell, it’ll be over My dead body.” Citation needed.

Not capable of abstract thinking?
=============

If you have evidence existence is a "creation" the scientists would like to hear it."

Ah, yes, atheism of the gaps, "Everything came from nothing, by nothing."

I'd like to see evidence for THAT in a peer-reviewed journal.
================

Flute said...

The act of will being referred to is the deliberate denial of God’s existence, in the face of evidence, and the deliberate rejection of His offer of salvation.

There's no evidence of the existence of the Christian god.

Your eternity is at stake and you think that laughing is the appropriate response?

I was laughing at when you had God say "I tried. Sucks to be you, I guess."

When God says accept my offer of salvation from hell and the free gift of eternity in paradise, or else you'll wind up in hell, is that love or a threat?

Why is it that atheists view warning of impending disaster a bad thing
?

In your worldview, "salvation" is not having your god throw you into a lake of fire. It's like an arsonist "saving" you from the house he set on fire. It's like a band-aid company cutting you to sell you band-aids.

"An omnipotent being could do more..."

Not without turning you into a robot. Do you think that you'd like that
?

What? Are you saying that God is NOT omnipotent?
And why would evidence turn you into a robot?

Not capable of abstract thinking?

I was joking.

"Everything came from nothing, by nothing."

I'd like to see evidence for THAT in a peer-reviewed journal
.

Is that what you believe?

PersonalFailure said...

"Don't talk to strangers" isn't a threat, Makarios, it's good advice.

And if god wants me to believe in him, all he has to do is arrange every star in the sky to say: PF, I'M REAL. Easy for an omnipotent being, and I'd believe after that.

The Atheist Missionary said...

Mak, you are being handed your ass as usual and this time the abuser is Flute.

Mak, I take it that you agree with the proposition that belief is not an act of will. You do not (and I suggest cannot) believe that there is a unicorn in your basement. Even if I told you that ....

1. Millions of people believe there is a unicorn in your basement;

2. Ancient scrolls record sightings by numerous observers of unicorns in the area of your basement (but no fossil records have been uncovered to provide physical proof of such sightings).

3. You will be damned to eternal hell-fire if you continue to doubt the existence of the unicorn in your basement.

... you would still not believe that there is a unicorn in your basement. Why? Because you would not rely on writings from antiquity to support your belief in a unicorn any more than you rely on writings from antiquity to support your belief in holy books that contradict your Christian beliefs.

Mak, you are living in a bubble: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbX30MJy3EM

Everything inside your bubble makes sense. Well, I guess it does if you ignore the parts of the Bible that are nasty, contradictory or just plan absurd (see the Skeptics Annotated Bible which is available online). Your beliefs fit very well the coherence theory of truth which states that the truth of any (true) proposition consists in its coherence with some specified set of propositions (i.e. something is true if it fits in with a set of beliefs which are accepted as true). Of course, the obvious problem with the coherence theory is that all the other propositions might be false. That, my friend, is your problem. In fact, it is far more likely that there are (or perhaps were) unicorns than any of the miracles described in your chosen holy book being true.

The Atheist Missionary said...

@PersonalFailure, that happened to me last night but the words spelled Chuck-e-Cheese:http://www.atheistmissionary.com/2009/04/church-of-chuck-e-cheese.html

Makarios said...

What? Are you saying that God is NOT omnipotent?"

Well, you tell me (I'm serious, please answer this) how to have real love without freewill and how to have freewill without stepping back and allowing choice?
===============

In your worldview, "salvation" is not having your god throw you into a lake of fire. It's like an arsonist "saving" you from the house he set on fire.”

There are two realities in the universe, love and evil. Why is that? I don’t know. Something that most people learn as they mature is the need to adapt to reality rather than sit and cry that they don't live in a different reality.

The salvation that God talks about is Him paying the penalty for your sins so that you can spend eternity in paradise. There’s only one other alternative to paradise and for the life of me I can’t understand why you’d rather choose THAT than heaven. Now, there is an arsonist. You're right about that. But it isn’t God. Sin / evil is the arsonist. In fact, you hired him thinking that he was a friend. You invited him right into your home - to live with you no less.
And he has indeed destroyed your dwelling.

However, God is offering to build you, free of charge a mansion the likes of which you can’t even dream. You, however would rather live in the ashes and blame God for that choice because, well, I don’t know why you want to blame God for choosing the bad instead of the good, you just do.
===============

"Everything came from nothing, by nothing." Is that what you believe?

No, that would be atheists who believe that. Based on current evidence, the choices are not difficult. Either:
1) Matter is eternal - or
Creator God is eternal

2) If Matter isn’t eternal then Matter is able to bring itself into existence - or Creator God brings matter into existence

3) Matter, against impossible odds, accidentally or purposely produces life - or Creator God purposely produces life from Matter

4) Matter arranges and designs itself exquisitely and intricately - or Creator God arranges and designs Matter exquisitely and intricately

5) Matter produces a life of meaning and context and purpose - NOT! - or

Creator God produces a life of meaning and context and purpose.

Since matter cannot be eternal, we’re left with a supernatural cause from outside of and prior to the origin of the universe.
===================

Personal - Easy for an omnipotent being, and I'd believe after that."

No you wouldn’t. Or have you forgotten? Atheists don’t believe in miracles and that would be a miracle. Rather than believing you would just say, “There’s a natural explanation for that. We don’t know what it is just yet but some day we will.”

And that would be the end of it.

Flute said...

Well, you tell me (I'm serious, please answer this) how to have real love without freewill and how to have freewill without stepping back and allowing choice?

Firstly, this is a different subject than what we were talking about before. How does evidence remove freewill? Second, are you claiming God is not omnipotent and could not do this?

"Everything came from nothing, by nothing." Is that what you believe?

No


Do you believe that nothing created God?

Something that most people learn as they mature is the need to adapt to reality rather than sit and cry that they don't live in a different reality.

No one is "sitting and crying". People are just pointing out that the Christian worldview, on many levels, does not make sense.

Makarios said...

“Firstly, this is a different subject than what we were talking about before. How does evidence remove freewill?”

Option One:
There are 10 people in a room, sitting in a circle. I want you to trust me. I want you to prove to yourself and to me that you trust me. I tell each person in the room that I can afford to give each of you 100 dollars.

Do you believe me?

I begin immediately to your right and give the first person a 100 dollar bill. I do the same with the second person and the third and so on around the room. At what point would you begin to believe my statement that I can afford to give you, the last of the ten people in the room, 100 dollars?

Because you have SOME evidence but not complete evidence, you will need to make a decision based on SOME faith but not total faith to believe me or to not believe me. It’s a choice. You can believe or you don’t have to believe.

Option Two:
There are 10 people in a room, sitting in a circle. I want you to trust me. I want you to prove to yourself and to me that you trust me. I tell each person in the room that I can afford to give each of you 100 dollars.

Do you believe me?

Do you trust me or don’t you trust me? I could give you hints and bits of evidence, but instead I pull out 10 brand new 100 dollar bills. You are no longer able to exercise free will in deciding if I can afford to give each of you 100 dollars. Complete evidence removes the freewill choice to exercise faith or to not exercise faith.

Heaven is only going to be for those who believe in God. He will not take away our decision by overwhelming you with evidence -

“Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not yet seen.” Hebrews 11:1
===================

Second, are you claiming God is not omnipotent and could not do this?"

Even an omnipotent being cannot do something that is logically incoherent or self-contradictory. It’s like wondering whether, if there were a round square, its area would equal the square of one of its sides. Even God could not give you an answer because any answer would be incoherent. God is absolutely logical and rational. That is one of the reasons that we have a mathematically precise universe.
================

“Do you believe that nothing created God?”

Whatever brought the universe into being existed outside of and prior to time. S/he it is eternal. S/he/it does not need to be created. S/he/it has alway existed. Either matter is eternal or God is eternal. It’s one or the other.

Whatever brought the universe into being existed outside of and prior to matter. That means that it is spirit.

Whatever brought the universe into being did so on purpose with order and calculation, that means that S/He is personal.

Whatever brought the universe into being is unimaginably intelligent. That means that S/He is something like a Mind.
===================

“People are just pointing out that the Christian worldview, on many levels, does not make sense.”

I would suggest that those people have not thought very hard about this issue OR they have personal reasons for rejecting the super natural. Every year science comes up with more and more evidence that points to a supernatural beginning of the universe. In fact Christianity is the only worldview that coheres with science on origins and thus Christianity is the only system that DOES make sense, based on what we observe re: origins of the universe, origins of life, massive amounts of intelligent information in DNA (information does not nor has it ever come from non intelligence), exquisitely finely tuned constants and quantities, objective moral values and obligations, etc. etc.

Glen20 said...

Man, I love it when the religious go from "Our god has given you evidence!" to "Our god can't give you evidence that'll remove your free-will!".

So you believe there is evidence, that evidence destroys faith and free-will, but you still have evidence, faith and free-will? Way to dig yourself into a hole!

Glen20 said...

Ah, so Makarios believes that nothing created YHWH. And if he believes YHWH created everything, by extension Makarios believes "nothing created everything"!
Way to go!

Makarios said...

So you believe there is evidence, that evidence destroys faith and free-will, but you still have evidence, faith and free-will? Way to dig yourself into a hole!"

I haven’t dug a hole. It’s just that you should stop drinking by this time of the day. It muddles your thinking.

SOME evidence requires SOME faith to make a decision. SOME evidence inspires SOME people to search deeper, harder, longer. OR, because of free will, SOME evidence causes those who don’t wish to know to stop searching altogether.

A lot of evidence or complete evidence removes both the need for faith AND the option to know or to not know.

It really shouldn’t be that difficult for you to understand.

Glen20 said...

I haven’t dug a hole. It’s just that you should stop drinking by this time of the day. It muddles your thinking.

Nice.
The question was how evidence could remove free will.
You like to pretend the question was how complete evidence removes faith.
Are you going to answer the question?

Makarios said...

Arrgh, because it’s in print, I can’t put the emphasis in the right place. Glen, SOME evidence, a bit of evidence, a few pieces of evidence do not remove faith. In fact just a BIT of evidence forces the use of faith. We're so used to using faith in our daily lives that we don't even notice it.

That’s why I say that agnostics are the only ones who go as far as the evidence allows. Atheists and Christians go as far as they can on roughly equal amounts of evidence, observed with different premises and they BOTH go the rest of the way on faith - making claims that cannot be proven with current evidence.

However, complete evidence, total evidence, compelling evidence removes any and all need for faith. AND it removes any opportunity for a freewill choice to choose this way or that way. If you can’t get it this time I don’t think I can explain it any clearer than this.

Oh! I get it. You think that I'm saying evidence for God removes ALL free will. No, no, no. I mean that overwhelming evidence for the existence of God removes the free will choice to seek further evidence for Him. It would take away your ability to deny His existence. He doesn't work that way. For those who seek, He gives more. For those who deny, even what they have He takes away.

Chris Mackey said...

However, complete evidence, total evidence, compelling evidence removes any and all need for faith. AND it removes any opportunity for a freewill choice to choose this way or that way. If you can’t get it this time I don’t think I can explain it any clearer than this.
You haven't explained it, you've just asserted it again. I can see why Flute asked this question.

Oh! I get it. You think that I'm saying evidence for God removes ALL free will. No, no, no. I mean that overwhelming evidence for the existence of God removes the free will choice to seek further evidence for Him. It would take away your ability to deny His existence. He doesn't work that way. For those who seek, He gives more. For those who deny, even what they have He takes away.

"I mean that overwhelming evidence for the existence of God removes the free will choice to seek further evidence for Him."
No, it doesn't.

"It would take away your ability to deny His existence."
No, it doesn't. If there was "overwhelming evidence" you could still deny GOd's existence, you'd just be doing it despite the "overwhelming evidence".

"For those who seek, He gives more. For those who deny, even what they have He takes away"
This doesn't make sense when you think about it. To deny evidence, you'd have to find it first. To take away evidence, you'd have to have evidence first.

Makarios said...

To deny evidence, you'd have to find it first. To take away evidence, you'd have to have evidence first."

That's exactly what atheists do. Even though science itself points to a cause, a supernatural cause for the beginning of the universe atheists just say, "No it doesn't" thereby denying the evidence that's right under their noses.

Flute said...

First you'll have to come up with some evidence.

And you are yet to show how evidence removes free will.

Makarios said...

Is this a joke? You really can't get this? You can't see that if you already know the answer, you no longer have the choice of how to answer?

Flute said...

No, I was talking about free will.
Not faith. Not knowledge.

Glen20 said...

You can't see that if you already know the answer, you no longer have the choice of how to answer?

Woah, God's omniscience means He has no choice? You've made God powerless! Good going!