Atheists are often heard to pronounce to anyone who will listen, “I don’t need God in order to be good.” The delusion involved in this statement has nothing to do with whether you have God in your life or not. The delusion is thinking that you can become a good person - period. I mean, face it! You don’t even live up to your own ethical standard. You judge others by their behaviours while judging yourself by your intentions. So claiming that somehow a perfectly Holy Creator God is not going to hold His nose in your presence is a bit ridiculous. The question then arises, “Can I be good WITH God?”
Only a person who is “BECOMING” a good person can know that every step we make in the direction of goodness opens our eyes to the evil still left in us. If you actually believe that you’re a good person, then you’re just about as corrupt as a human can be. That is why Christians talk so incessantly about evil while atheists can hardly force themselves to acknowledge the existence of evil unless it crashes planes into office towers, or until it takes up a crusade against infidels. Actually, atheists don’t recognise evil at ALL unless
a) religion is somehow involved in the event, or
b) it happens to them.
Regardless, salvation is an event whereby constant improvement in character is actually THE SIGN that the event of salvation has taken place. Each of us who claim Jesus as our mentor should be better people than we were the year before. Our lives should reflect more mercy, more patience, more grace, more love for our enemies than they did last year at this time.
I joked a couple posts ago about an atheist who said that he “proved” people could improve who they are without the aid of God. How did he do that? He went a month without eating chocolate. Perhaps that’s a big step for an atheist. I don’t know.
Anyhow, something that I’ve noticed almost thirty years down the road in my walk with Jesus is that the closer I get to heaven, both figuratively and literally, the more conscious I am of how much I deserve to be in hell. That’s what happens when Jesus changes us for the better. That’s why atheists are so offended that Creator God would even think of allowing such wonderful people as themselves to go through such a horrible experience as hell. They really can’t see any reason for their exclusion from heaven. It’s beyond their ability to comprehend.
Since being with Jesus means that we become more aware of the evil still in us, and since this creates in us a deep desire to step completely out of the life destroying mire of sin, it becomes obvious that the reason most people don’t feel sinful is the same reason a fish doesn’t feel wet. They’re immersed in sin. It fills every crevice of their existence. They breath in evil like people in Mexico City breath in pollution.
They watch sin.
They read sin.
They listen to sin.
They embrace sin.
They laugh at and with sin.
They’ve adapted to sin and they’re comfortable with it in their lives.
Why else would we allow and even encourage a world that sells children into sexual slavery? Why else would we allow and even encourage a world that starves to death thousands of children EVERY DAY? When we fist step into a darkened movie theatre, we’re appalled at how blind we are. Very soon however we grow accustomed to the darkness and we move about quite freely. So too with sin. We adjust to it and soon enough we hardly notice that we’re cloaked in spiritual darkness. Soon enough we become oblivious to the stench of spiritual death that emanates from our every pore.
As we grow closer to Christlikeness we should become more aware of our need for Jesus’ salvation, and more appalled at the sin still left in us, more cognisant of our deep, deep dependence on Jesus for any improvement in our character, and more and more grateful than ever for Jesus’ offer of forgiveness.
Can I be good with God in my life? If I’m not getting progressively better, there a pretty good chance that God isn’t in my life. I’ll never be as good as I should be but hopefully I’ll be better than I was.
Salvation kick starts a process of rehabilitation.
Salvation begins a way of life that is dynamic, dramatic and difficult.
Salvation is my destiny.
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Makarios, what are you saying "evil" is?
Was the tsunami that crashed ashore in Phuket evil?
Is the female red back spider committing an evil act when it cannibilizes its male partner while mating?
Is cancer evil?
Does evil exist outside the realm of humanity and, if so, how? Or does evil only lurk in the heart of mankind?
If evil can only exist anthropically, who decides if a given act is evil? If I kill someone randomly, I presume that you would agree that is an evil act. However, plenty of killing can be considered justified such as in the case of self defence so the murderous act itself is not evil. What if the person I kill randomly would have become the next Ted Bundy?
I would like to know your definition of evil. After all, evil was supposedly created by your God. If you define it (as many do) as the infliction of suffering, then we have much more evil in the natural world than we do in our interpersonal world. However, if you restrict the concept of evil to humanity, I would like to know why. Please elaborate.
I thought you and I had already been down this road. Perhaps it was a different atheist. You all tend to look alike :-)
I would say that evil is anything, a motive, thought or behaviour that is in deliberate opposition to the will and desire of Creator God. Why, because God is the definition of ultimate good / Love.
I would suggest to you that it was our free will choice that brought evil into experiential existence.
Thank-you. While suffering in the world is pervasive, there is no evil if there is no God. I submit that the concept of evil is meaningless. While the actions of the Nazis in exterminating the Jews were horrific, so too is the deliberate stomping of an ant by a curious toddler (at least from the perspective of an ant) or a tsunami sucking infants from the arms of the parents. Please do not accuse me of comparing Jews to ants or toddlers to Nazis - that is not my intention. My point is simply that the concept of evil is meaningless. Horrendous suffering is caused by both nature and mankind. From the perspective of the victims, I can't see how a tsunami or stomped bug is any less "evil" than the holocaust. Please explain.
"My point is simply that the concept of evil is meaningless."
To an atheist, of course it is. You make up the rules as you go and call it logic.
To and atheist 6 million human lives are equivolent to an ant, "But please don’t accuse me of saying that." Pfft.
Eugenics anyone? Fascist atheists love it.
Makarios, you consistently mix up two discrete issues: 1. the existence of God (i.e. whether your delusion can be justified on logical grounds); and 2. whether religion has an overall positive effect on humanity (i.e. whether the mass delusion is good for us).
With respect to #1, you offer nothing more than the ontological argument with a sprinkling of creationism.
With respect to #2, you offer the simplistic "there can't be morality without God". As you know, I don't accept that proposition for a minute. But supposing you are correct, how does it help you with #1? It doesn't. If you are diagnosed with cancer, would you want the doctor to lie to you? I use that analogy because you obviously feel that life without your God delusions would be akin to a cancer.
All I've given you is what science tells us. Everything that begins to exist has a cause and an explanation of and for it's beginning. Atheists are the one who ignore science for metaphysical reasons.
I've never said we must have God in order to have a moral value system. I do say that without God, objective morals do not exist. You say the same until someone does something "wrong" to you. Then you're quite confident that objective right and wrong does exist. You just don't have any basis for making that claim.
"Atheists are the one who ignore science for metaphysical reasons."
Wait, what? Huh? I think you should have said "Christians are the ones who ignore science for metaphysical reasons."
What metaphysical reasons do Atheists have for ignoring science? And since when have we ignored science?
You say Atheists can't become better people without god, but there sure are a lot of you Christians in prison for molesting kids... Seems like you're doing an awesome job becoming "better people through Christ."
What the fuck ever.
What metaphysical reasons do Atheists have for ignoring science? And since when have we ignored science?
. Whatever begins to exist has a cause
. The universe began to exist
. Therefore the universe has a cause
. Whatever begins to exist has an explanation of its existence either in the necessity of its own existence (It can't NOT exist) or in an external cause.
. The universe must have an explanation of its coming into existence which is external because the universe is not necessary
. Matter cannot be eternal
. There cannot be an infinite regress of cause
. There is no such thing as an infinite material.
All of these things point to a non natural but a supra natural Creator or the universe.
These facts are know via the scientific manner if inquiry and atheists must ignore them if they are to avoid the metaphysical implications of these facts.
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"You say Atheists can't become better people without god,"
I've never said that! That's nothing but an atheist fantasy.
I quote you on this post.
"You judge others by their behaviours while judging yourself by your intentions."
All your blog seems to be about is judging Atheists. And I'd like to know how I'm judgmental of someone or something that I once was. A Christian.
"That is why Christians talk so incessantly about evil while atheists can hardly force themselves to acknowledge the existence of evil unless it crashes planes into office towers"
When it all boils down, without Religious differences this probably would have never happened. Osama has been recorded, quoting parts of the Qu'ran stating that Allah told him to attack America & death to all Americans.
"They watch sin.
They read sin.
They listen to sin.
They embrace sin.
They laugh at and with sin."
No, we laugh only at the people who look at things one-sidely. And will only believe the things they were taught to believe by their parents, & their parents' parents. If you were born into a home which centered themselves around a religion like Rastafarianism, are you telling me you would still be a Christian? Most Atheists, became atheists from not doubting God so much as being open-minded. And it is only sin to you because you believe it to be.
I know I am kind-hearted, and I know I act that way because it's morally right. It's how I would like to be treated. So, for you to categorize Atheists as a whole, as if we individually share the same beliefs, as if Atheism IS a RELIGION, is very unethical. And I can't help but be saddened when I am judged, by people of any religion, because of my beliefs. Especially without being listened to first.
“All your blog seems to be about is judging Atheists.”
Well, I like to think that I’m addressing the absurdities of the atheist belief system. For example:
- What we know of Creator God of the Bible is from the Bible - Agreed?
- But you say, “There is no Creator God of the Bible” - Agreed?
- And you then say, “Here is what the God of the Bible will do with atheists on the day of judgement. He would forgive us Atheists for our doubt in him, understanding our reasons of doing so, & know that we purely act on inquiry & knowledge of the world.”
You invent this imaginary God and then tell us what He will do. I mean it’s ludicrous and there are SO MANY statements like that. Why does it matter? Why do I care? It wouldn’t matter and I probably wouldn’t care if atheists didn’t hold forth on what logical and reasonable people they are.
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What was it about yourself that allows you to define yourself as a former Christian?
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“without Religious differences this probably would have never happened.”
Dear child, just how young are you?
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“And will only believe the things they were taught to believe by their parents, & their parents' parents.”
How do you know? Christianity began in and continues to spread throughout the world in countries that are not Christian and in fact are openly hostile to Christianity.
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“And it is only sin to you because you believe it to be.”
Really?
- Millions of children are forced to wonder if anyone loves them because mom and dad have split after dad starts screwing his secretary. You don’t have any problems with that?
Millions of children are sold into sexual slavery every single year. You don’t have any problems with that?
Millions of children starve to death every year. You don’t have any problems with that?
Millions of women are denied access to education and physical safety just because they are women. You don’t have any problems with that?
I believe all of these things to be absolutely and objectively wrong. That means they are wrong regardless of what I believe. As an atheist you obviously cannot say the same thing.
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“I know I am kind-hearted, and I know I act that way because it's morally right.”
And what standard of morality would you be using? Yours? The person next door? If you say that you have worth and the person next door says you have no worth, in an atheist world-view the person next door is just as correct as you are.
Atheism, just one absurdity after another.
“I am judged . . . Especially without being listened to first.”
You - the person - are probably just fine. Your atheist world-view is ridiculous and absurd.
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