There’s a spectacular piece of road in the Canadian Rockies. It’s seven kilometres long with a 14 degree slope. No turns. Two runaway ramps. Good engine required going up. Good brakes required going down.
So one day there’s four atheists in a car. First time in the Canadian Rockies. On the way down and half a kilometre from the top, one of the atheists quips,
A1 - Seems like we’re going pretty fast
A2 - Ya I was noticing the same thing
A3 - Try the brakes there Stanley
A4 - I did
A1 - You did?
A4 - Ya, I tried them back a ways. There’s nothing
A2 - Nothing?
A4 - Nope. Nothing. Pedal goes right to the floor.
A3 - Hmm. Say! Did I ever tell you about the time my next door neighbour showed me a good way to change a flat tire?
A4 - No, you never did. What did he have to say?
A3 - Well, it sounds real handy. Now you take the tire iron and you hold it like so . . .
A2 - Hold on a minute there Harold. That sign we just passed said there’s a runaway lane just up there to the right.
A4 - Ah, who needs it. So what do you do after you hold the tire iron just so?
A1 - You know if we’re still going 180 when we get to that turn up ahead we could be in trouble.
A3 - Did I ever tell you about the time that I screwed my aunt Myrtle?
A4,1 & 2 in unison - No. I’d love to hear that story.
Isn’t that just like atheists though? They’re heading for disaster and they’ll try to talk to you about the darndest things. In fact, atheists will talk to you about everything BUT salvation.
. If they don’t accept their need for forgiveness they’re doomed. Yet they’ll spend countless days talking about whether they can be as moral, more moral or less moral than someone who doesn’t believe in God.
. If atheists continue to deny God’s role in their lives they’re as good as gone. Yet they’ll discuss for years on end whether it’s more correct to say that they don’t believe in God or whether they’re non believers in God.
. If they don’t get right with their Creator, atheists will spend eternity in hell. Yet they’ll post back and forth how, on the one hand, there’s no such thing as right or wrong, while on the other hand they’ll describe their own set of morals as impeccable.
. If atheists continue to convince their own children that God doesn’t exist, the definition of hell will take on a whole new meaning. Yet they continue to describe in the smallest detail the God that they claim to not believe in.
Forgiveness? Don’t want it
Salvation? Who needs it
Say, did you see Hitchens in that debate last night? That guy is brilliant!
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23 comments:
Your reference to the Canadian Rockies reminds me of this story: http://www.atheistmissionary.com/2009/02/day-i-finally-saw-light.html
I wouldn't necessarily say we're headed for disaster with 'God'. If God is such a loving and just person, as people pertain him to be, he would forgive us Atheists for our doubt in him, understanding our reasons of doing so, & know that we purely act on inquiry & knowledge of the world. (Science, more or less)
And I think that's a harsh judgement for a Christian to put forth.
Also, we don't try to talk anyone out of believing anything. Atleast I, personally, do not. I've only had to defend my belief.
"we purely act on inquiry & knowledge of the world."
That's funny! Or do you really think that this one more lie is going to make things better?
How is it a lie? Enlighten me, since you're so educated on MY beliefs. As I know I am educated on yours. I, too, was once a Christian. I highly doubt by the way you're attacking my beliefs that you have never, even in thought, been an Atheist. & I don't think "your god" would be very appreciative of the way you treat others because they don't believe in the same thing as you do.
I wasn't a Christian until I was thirty years old. I have now been a Christian for twenty eight years.
How is it a lie that God will excuse your ignorance?
"Since what may be known about God is plain to them because God has made it plain to them. Gor since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities - His eternal power and divine nature - have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made so that no one is without excuse."
Mark 16:16 - Jesus said, “Those who believe and are baptized will be saved but those who refuse to believe will be condemned.”
John 1:12,13 - Jesus said, “Unless you are born again, you can never get into the kingdom of heaven.” There is no eternal doom awaiting those who trust Him save them. But those who don’t trust Him have already been tried and condemned for not believing in the only Son of God.
John 3:3 - “I tell you the truth, no one an see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.”
John 3:16-18 - “For God so loved that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe in him stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.”
John 5:24 - Jesus said, “I say emphatically that anyone who listens to My message and believes in God who sent me has eternal life and will NEVER be damned for his sins. He has crossed from death into life.”
John 6:40 - “For my Father’s will is that every one who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”
John 8:24 - Jesus said, “For unless you believe that I am the Son of God, the Messiah, you will die in your sins.”
John 14:6 - “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
Acts 13:38,39 - In this man Jesus there is forgiveness for your sins. Everyone who trusts in Him is freed from all guilt and declared righteous.
Romans 3:27,28 - Our acquittal is not based on our good deeds, it is based on what Christ has done and our faith in Him. So it is we are saved, by faith in Christ and not by the good things we do.
Romans 9:32 - Because they were trying to be saved by keeping the law and being good instead of by depending on faith, they have stumbled over that great stumbling stone, Jesus.
Galatians 2:19 - It was through reading the Bible that I came to realize that I could never find God’s favour by trying and failing to obey the law. I came to realize that acceptance with God comes by believing in Christ.
1st Thessalonians 1:8,9 - The Lord Jesus will bring judgement on those who do not wish to know God and those who reject His plan to save them through our Lord Jesus Christ. They will be punished in everlasting hell, forever separated from the Lord, never to see the glory of His power.
Maybe you see some wiggle room in there for deliberately denying God's existence by then hey! You're an atheist. You can make up whatever you want to believe.
You're right, Everyone is free to make up whatever they want to believe. But I don't make what I believe up. I look at things from an intellectual perspective & I note science vs. faith.
My only concern is that Religious-folk & people of faith misconstrue Atheists as bad people. And think that we hate anyone of Religious faith, or that we push our views on others, or that we think anyone who believes in God is stupid for doing so. That's not what I'm about. So, when I read your blogs about Atheism, and a lot of the things you note aren't and don't necessarily apply to me & my way of life, It's frustrating.
Not until recently, have Atheists really started to speak up about their beliefs, & I want to contribute to that by saying, We have a voice. Hoping that the stereotyped and judgements that have been placed on Atheists & Theists as a whole, will change or atleast be viewed better or more positively.
In regards to the verses you have quoted, my reason for not-believing them to be true (in my opinion) is because God gave us free-will. But yet, he wishes to condemn whoever doesn't follow his rules.
It's like telling a child, "You can paint your room whatever color you want, but if it isn't Orange, I'm going to take your Bike away & you're grounded for Eternity"
Then, in response to your statement on not being a Christian for the majority of your life, May I be wrong to ask what your beliefs were prior? I'm only curious to understand the reason you believe so much in Christianity.
Within leaving these comments, I've had no intention to point out who's wrong & who's right. Only trying to get a better understanding & broaden my knowledge on different perspectives of different Religions.
And in regards to Thessalonians 1:8 & 9, It's not that I do not wish to know God, it's that I tried to know God & discovered he did not exist in the process.
“But I don't make what I believe up.”
1) Science tells us that everything that begins to exist has a Cause. This means that the universe had a Cause.
This is what the scientific method of inquiry tells us is true. Atheists tell us that the universe did NOT have a cause. It just happened. If you agree with the majority of atheists, then you actually DID make it up because to believe that, you have to have faith that science is wrong regarding origins.
2) Science tells us that matter cannot be infinite or eternal.
Science tells us that there cannot be an infinite regress of cause.
Atheists tell us that matter IS eternal or infinite. And atheists tell us that this universe is just the latest in what has been an infinite regress of cause. If you agree with the majority of atheists, you actually DID make it up because to believe that, you have to have faith that science is wrong regarding origins.
Do you or do you not agree with science, or did you make up something else that you’d rather believe?
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“My only concern is that Religious-folk & people of faith misconstrue Atheists as bad people.”
That isn’t fair and it’s wrong.
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“But yet, he wishes to condemn whoever doesn't follow his rules.”
The only people who will be condemned will be those who reject God's offer of salvation.
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“It's like telling a child, "You can paint your room whatever color you want, but if it isn't Orange”
No, it would be, “You can use whatever colour you want except orange.”
If the child knows before hand what the rules are, how is that not fair?
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“I'm only curious to understand the reason you believe so much in Christianity.”
Historical Scholars, not YouTube goofs but real historical scholars have made a case for Jesus that can’t be easily shoved aside. Things like:
The empty tomb,
The dramatic change in the disciple’s character from cowards to fearless leaders,
The transformation of the sceptic Paul,
The transformation of the sceptic and brother of Jesus, James
- Things like these didn’t have any good explanation EXCEPT the resurrection.
And here is what really put me at odds with atheism. How in the world can someone call themselves open-minded when they A PRIORI reject a whole category of evidence just because it doesn’t agree with their preset world-view? This closed-minded atheist view even causes atheists to reject the findings of science because it contradicts their world-view. THAT is not a logical and reasonable way to live. If a miracle is something that happens apart from the laws of physics, then the Singularity itself is a working definition of a miracle. Why? Because the Big Bang took place in the absence of and prior to the coming into being of the laws of physics. If that miracle can happen then any miracle can happen.
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“discovered he did not exist in the process.”
Since that’s something that's impossible to do, I assume you mean you came to the conclusion that God NOT existing is more probable that is His existence.
I’m still curious. What was it about your beliefs that led you to describe yourself as a Christian?
rationalbeauty wrote: It's like telling a child, "You can paint your room whatever color you want, but if it isn't Orange, I'm going to take your Bike away & you're grounded for Eternity"
That was a beauty! :)
Beauty? Ya as long as you don't care if it makes sense. And of course atheists don't care one bit.
"1) Science tells us that everything that begins to exist has a Cause. This means that the universe had a Cause.
This is what the scientific method of inquiry tells us is true. Atheists tell us that the universe did NOT have a cause. It just happened. If you agree with the majority of atheists, then you actually DID make it up because to believe that, you have to have faith that science is wrong regarding origins."
Once again, You're judging me off of what you've heard through other Atheists. You ask me what my stand-point is on how the Universe came to be, I could just so easily ask you where did God come from?
Science tells us that matter cannot be infinite or eternal.
Science tells us that there cannot be an infinite regress of cause.
Atheists tell us that matter IS eternal or infinite.
A larger percentage of Scientists in the United States are Atheists compared to that in the general population. Now, wouldn't that sort of be a contridiction if a Scientist, who is also an Atheist, knows that matter cannot be infinite, but still stands firm to his belief? Once again, you're judging "Atheists" as if you know particularly what we believe in as a whole. Atheists do not subscribe to a common doctrine. We do not always share the same beliefs.
No, it would be, “You can use whatever colour you want except orange.”
If the child knows before hand what the rules are, how is that not fair?
But how is that Free Will, if we're still going to be punished at the end of the day, for really wanting Orange. God should have just simply removed Orange from the equation.
“My only concern is that Religious-folk & people of faith misconstrue Atheists as bad people.”
That isn’t fair and it’s wrong.
I didn't understand what you were insinuating with this. Were you saying I was wrong for elaborating on how Atheists are stereotyped by most people of Religious-faith? Or were you agreeing with me in the aspect of, it being a little harsh to place judgement on someone when you don't understand them?
Sorry for the 2 posts, I know I typed a lot. “In regards to your "historical Scholars response.
But Jesus' story is not the first of it's kind. The stories of Jesus and Horus are very similar, with Horus even contributing the name of Jesus Christ. Horus and his once-and-future Father, Osiris, are frequently interchangeable in the mythos ("I and my Father are one") The legends of Horus go back thousands of years, and he shares a handful of these things listed, with Jesus.
Horus was born of the virgin Isis-Meri on December 25th in a cave/manger, with his birth being announced by a star in the East and attended by three wise men. He was a child teacher in the Temple and was baptized when he was 30 years old. Horus was also baptized by "Anup the Baptizer," who becomes "John the Baptist." He had 12 disciples. He performed miracles and raised one man, El-Azar-us, from the dead. He walked on water. Horus was transfigured on the Mount. He was crucified, buried in a tomb and resurrected. He was also the "Way, the Truth, the Light, the Messiah, God's Anointed Son, the Son of Man, the Good Shepherd, the Lamb of God, the Word" etc. He was "the Fisher," and was associated with the Lamb, Lion and Fish ("Ichthys"). Horus's personal epithet was "Iusa," the "ever-becoming son" of "Ptah," the "Father." Horus was called "the KRST," or "Anointed One," long before the Christians duplicated the story. In fact, in the catacombs at Rome are pictures of the baby Horus being held by the virgin mother Isis - the original "Madonna and Child" - and the Vatican itself is built upon the papacy of Mithra, who shares many qualities with Jesus and who existed as a deity long before the Jesus character was formalized. The Christian hierarchy is nearly identical to the Mithraic version it replaced. Virtually all of the elements of the Catholic ritual, from miter to wafer to water to altar to doxology, are directly taken from earlier pagan mystery religions.
How in the world can someone call themselves open-minded when they A PRIORI reject a whole category of evidence just because it doesn’t agree with their preset world-view?
I call myself open minded, because I didn't just reject Christianity. I rejected a handful of other religions as well when I crossed over to change my beliefs. I was born a Christian. Meaning my parents instilled that into my head at a young age. If you read my blog, (which you have visited) you'll understand my reason for becoming open-minded. (because that's what I am, if I wasn't I wouldn't be listening to your views & respecting them)I am genuinely a humble individual. I wasn't going to reject the religion I was born into without having looked at other things first. I did not go research Atheisim, I researched Christanity. I found the bible to be full of Murder, Rape, & Incest. How am I going to live my life by a book, who tells me how to be righteous, but in the process downgrades women, shows how incest created the population within Adam & eve having 2 sons; then continuing on into things like Abraham sacrificing his son.
“discovered he did not exist in the process.”
Since that’s something that's impossible to do.
However, I apologize for wording that incorrectly. You're response to this statement WAS in fact; correct. I'm sorry for the miscommunication, I didn't know exactly how to word that without sounding offensive. As I said, that is not my objective with these comments. I am only trying to understand what keeps you believing in God & if you knew what all I know, or seen things from my perspective, would you still believe?
Am I the only one curios about what Aunt Myrtle looks like?
peace out, feeno
Oh how cute! Do you do racist stereotypes, too?
“I could just so easily ask you where did God come from?”
Well, you could. But asking
“When did an eternal being begin to exist,” or
“What caused an infinite or eternal being to begin to exist,” is illogical and incoherent. That’s what I’ve been saying all along. Atheism is absurd to the core.
Whatever caused the universe:
Existed outside of and prior to the existence of matter - Therefore the Cause is immaterial of spirit
Existed outside of and prior to the existence of time - Therefore the Cause is timeless, infinite, eternal
Is Infinitely intelligent and infinitely powerful
The fact remains, and it remains a fact that is based on what science tells us is true, that everything that begins to exist, including the universe, had its cause from something outside of itself. There are no known exceptions to this observed and consistently verified rule.
We must choose between matter as infinite or Creator God who is Spirit, as infinite. Reason states that it must be One and not the other for matter cannot pre-exist itself either physically or chronologically, nor can matter bring itself into existence or create itself. Again, it is impossible for matter to be infinite or to exist from eternity past.
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I believe the question at hand was, do you make things up in order to believe them? Do you agree with science that matter cannot be infinite or eternal? And Do you agree with science that there cannot be an infinite regress of cause? OR, do you agree with atheists who, in defiance of what science tells us, have made up and now believe that matter IS eternal or infinite. Which side are you on. You seem like an intelligent young woman. Are you going to go with your brain, or are you going to override your brain for a world-view that seemingly allows you more freedom?
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“We do not always share the same beliefs.”
But you do share that belief; that you do not share the same beliefs.
And that there is no God.
And that Jesus was not God.
And that God did not create the world.
And that the Bible is not the Word of God . . .
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“God should have just simply removed Orange from the equation.”
In theory I suppose we could. In reality, where God exists as fact, there are only two options. Just because one of the options is really crappy doesn’t mean you don’t have a choice. I’ve heard from many, many atheists who are adamant that if they knew for a fact that hell existed, they would still choose hell rather than bow down before Creator God.
Are you sure that’s the group that you want to hang with? They don’t seem very bright to me.
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I’m saying that it’s wrong for Christians to think that non Christians can’t be good people.
"I was born a Christian. Meaning my parents instilled that into my head at a young age."
If your parents were Republican would that make you Republican? Of course not. Being a Christian involves a person choice. It involves a relationship between you and Jesus and no one else. If you investigated Christianity, why wouldn’t you know that? I wrote a post called “God doesn’t have grandchildren” that addresses this issue.
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“I found the bible to be full of Murder, Rape, & Incest.”
Humans murder, rape, commit incest, downgrade women etc. etc.
Abraham did not sacrifice his son. However, all of the nations around Abraham offered their children as living burnt offerings to their gods.
The Bible, by and large, is a book that details OUR unrighteousness, our failings, our tendency to harm others and that is contrasted with God willingness to forgive and forgive and forgive again and again and again.
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It's like telling a child, "You can paint your room whatever color you want, but if it isn't Orange, I'm going to take your Bike away & you're grounded for Eternity"
Well, almost. Substitute "unicycle" in place of "Orange" and "going to be beaten" in place of "grounded," and the analogy is perfect.
rationalbeautty
I tried to leave a comment for you on your blog but can't get through for some reason?
Also, I saw your picture and your half right. We need to call you irrational beauty.
Hope I'll be able to post over at your site soon. It looks like you've done a good job.
Peace out, feeno
“What caused an infinite or eternal being to begin to exist,” is illogical and incoherent.
How so? What's more illogical here. Believing a Book on how the world started? A book that blatantly degrades women.
"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church" (1 Corinthians 14:34-35).
"And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When a man shall make a singular vow, the persons shall be for the Lord by thy estimation. And thy estimation shall be of the male from twenty years old even unto sixty years old, even thy estimation shall be fifty shekels of silver, after the shekel of the sanctuary. And if it be a female, then thy estimation shall be thirty shekels. And if it be from a month old even unto five years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female thy estimation shall be three shekels of silver. And if it be from sixty years old and above, if it be a male, then thy estimation shall be fifteen shekels, and for the female, ten shekels" (Leviticus 27:1-7)
I can find PLENTY more.
I personally believe the universe was created at random. Meaning: proceeding, made, or occurring without definite aim, purpose, reason, or pattern.
It only seems right to me. All these other planets which makes life unsuitable for us humans, which (as of now) shown no signs of life. Did god create these too? For what?
What I mean with saying "I could just as easily ask you how god came to be" is because I know with this argument we can't hold a common ground. You argue that the bible PROVES your side. I argue that it does not. I will concede on the fact of we both don't know. But you claiming you KNOW god exists, is the equivalent to me saying I know god does not. If you say it's wrong for me to feel that way, why? I argue that a book can not tell me how the earth was created, especially a book that I find disturbing in more ways than one. Also a book that has yet to prove me anything.
In regards to the bible. I would be here for days writting paragraphs on my reasons for not believing in the bible & why I find it so disturbing. Instead of leaving a lengthy-comment, I will post an entry on my blog as to why I believe the bible to be wrong, & false. If you are interested, feel free to visit.
Also** I meant to add.
That we are both Atheists. Just as you dismiss other gods, you should understand why I do not believe in yours.
lulz!
“What caused an infinite or eternal being to begin to exist,” is illogical and incoherent.
How so?
Eternal means that "it" doesn’t have a beginning. It’s always been.
The idea of an eternal Cause of the universe doesn’t come from the Bible. It agrees with what the Bible says but it actually comes from philosophy.
Here’s what we know from science and philosophy:
. Either matter is eternal or Creator God is eternal
But we know from science that
matter cannot be eternal
. If matter is not eternal then it had a beginning. Therefore, either matter created itself or Creator God created matter
But we know from science that matter cannot create nor pre exist itself.
It’s One or the other and since it can’t be matter, then it must be an eternal Cause. That cause is what we normally call God.
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“A book that blatantly degrades women.”
Well, compared to the 21st century these verses seem quite strange. Compared to the surrounding cultures Jesus and His interactions with women were / are incredibly counter to all cultures, including ours. You may not have noticed, but our society today if practically back to Biblical times. Women on mostly on their own, struggling to raise their children on their own. Many are living in poverty while only a few are "making it" as the world views it. They are still seen as sexual object more often than people in their own right. And I'm talking about the secular world.
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“I personally believe the universe was created at random.”
So you actually DO believe, contrary to what science says is possible, that everything came FROM nothing, BY nothing. That takes a lot of faith!
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“You argue that the bible PROVES your side.”
No, no, no. Regarding origins I’m saying that science proves my side and it definitively refutes your side. Everything CANNOT come from nothing. Life CANNOT come from non life. This is what science tells us. You can make up something else if you choose to do so but then you should stop referring to yourself as rational.
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“I argue that a book can not tell me how the earth was created,”
My dear child, I don’t know how many times or how many different ways I can say this but I’ll try once more. NOTHING that I’m saying regarding origins comes from the Bible. What science and philosophy say agrees with the Bible but these findings do not come FROM the Bible.
I don’t have the ability to say this stuff any more clearly than that. Anybody else want to help me out here?
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“especially a book that I find disturbing in more ways than one.”
Of course the truth of what something or someone says is not based on whether we agree with it or not.
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“In regards to the bible. I would be here for days writting paragraphs on my reasons for not believing in the bible”
No one is asking you to do that. This is a scientific discussion, not a Biblical discussion.
I don't dismiss any other gods. That's why I dismiss atheism. Doesn't it ever suck when nothing that you say works?
Personal: Because we have such a great relationship, I can tell that you're laughing with me and not at me :-)
I would continue to respond, but from your last few posts, I can tell you're getting a little irritated as if I'm not understanding the points you're making. Which I am, but I see that this argument is going no where. And until one of us stops responding, before you know it, we'll have well over 100 comments to one entry, lol.
I will, however, continue visiting your blog regularly, & subscribe to your RSS feed. Hopefully, by doing this, we can help to understand one another better. This was my ultimate goal here. To converse with someone, politely, of various religions and learn a few things from them, and maybe they can learn something in return.
I respect your argument. Although; we do not see eye to eye on much of the debate, I still respect your knowledge & you, for responding. And atleast TRYING to be polite.
Let's agree to disagree!
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