Sunday, June 14, 2009

Ya gotta have faith, faith, faith

Atheists hate the word faith, yet they live their lives immersed in it. In fact, enormous amounts of faith is a requirement for being an atheist. If you do not have enough faith to believe that nothing can create everything, and I mean REALLY believe that, then you do not possess enough faith to be an atheist.

Without any evidence to back them up and many times with evidence contradicting what they do believe, by faith alone atheists believe that:
Everything came from nothing by nothing.

by faith alone atheists believe that:
Even in the face of evidence to the contrary, the precise fine tuning of the 100 or so constants and qualities were “put in” to the Singularity prior to Planck time because of a really, really, really amazing coincidence.

by faith alone atheists believe that:
Even in the face of evidence to the contrary, nothing that begins to exists needs an explanation for it’s existence

by faith alone atheists believe that:
Even in the face of evidence to the contrary, while it takes intelligence to write a sentence, it does NOT require intelligence to write a code with a comparable volume of 1,000 sets of encyclopedias capable of directing the functioning of every organ and every cell in a living body from conception to death.

by faith alone atheists believe that:
Even in the face of evidence to the contrary, time plus chance can turn the impossible into the possible.

by faith alone atheists believe that:
Even in the face of evidence to the contrary, a mindless process can do what brilliant scientists in several hundred years of trying cannot i.e., create life from non life.

by faith alone atheists believe that:
Even in the face of evidence to the contrary, the Cambrian explosion has no significant meaning whatsoever.

by faith alone atheists believe that:
Even in the face of evidence to the contrary, the results of micro evolution can be extrapolated onto macro evolution.

by faith alone atheists believe that:
Even in the face of evidence to the contrary, the New Testament writers, to a person, were liars, delusional and power hungry.

by faith alone atheists believe that:
Even in the face of evidence to the contrary, Jesus didn’t die on the cross

by faith alone atheists believe that:
Even in the face of evidence to the contrary, Jesus wasn’t buried in a rich man’s tomb

by faith alone atheists believe that:
Even in the face of evidence to the contrary, The tomb was empty, but not because Jesus rose from the dead

by faith alone atheists believe that:
Even in the face of evidence to the contrary, the disciples went from cowards who denied and ran away from Jesus to fearless witnesses who proclaimed the resurrected Jesus, but not because Jesus rose from the dead.

By faith alone atheists believe that:
Even in the face of evidence to the contrary, sceptic Paul went from killing Christians to becoming one of Christianity’s most powerful witness, but not because he was met by the risen Jesus.

By faith alone atheists believe that:
Even in the face of evidence to the contrary, the sceptic James, Jesus’ brother went from thinking His brother was insane to worshipping Him as Creator God, but not because Jesus rose from the dead.

12 comments:

Baconeater said...

If you do your homework you would find that atheist do not think that everything came from nothing by nothing.

Who says that?

I didn't bother with the other stuff, until you mention Jesus. Sorry pal, but there is no contemporary evidence Jesus ever existed. The first time Jesus is mentioned outside the bible happened 50 years "after the fact."

If Paul existed, and I mean if, he made up the whole thing, he had a dream. The Jews were waiting for the Messiah at the time, so many were going around pretending to be the son of God at the time, so it was an easy sale to invent a person completely and over time give him a whole story (that pretty much parallels Dionysus).

Sorry dude, but you are being had.

Makarios said...

"atheist do not think that everything came from nothing by nothing."

So if matter can't be eternal and if matter can't create itself, what then?
========

So you believe that not only the sceptic Paul, but the sceptic James and others who claimed to be eyewitnesses to the life death and resurrection of Jesus, made up this lie? And you then believe they all of them (not one single person recanted regarding this lie), spent the rest of their lives in hardship, deprivation and finally execution all for this incredible lie. Is that what you're suggesting?

Makarios said...

"The first time Jesus is mentioned outside the bible happened 50 years "after the fact."

So? The first that Alexander the Great is mentioned is several hundred years after his death. What's your point?

Flute said...

Even in the face of evidence to the contrary...

What evidence?

Còmhradh said...

So many logical fallacies, so little time.

1) Argumentum ad reductem.
2) Coincidences almost always appear amazing.
3) [citation needed].
4) Argumentum ad ignorantiam.
5) [citation needed] Also, highly unlikely =/= impossible.
6) Argumentum ad ignorantiam.
7) Argumentum ad ignorantiam.
8) [citation needed].
9) [citation needed].
10) [citation seriously needed]
11) [citation needed], Argumentum ad lapidem.
12) [citation needed], Argumentum ad lapidem.
13) [citation needed], Argumentum ad lapidem.
14) [citation needed], Argumentum ad lapidem.

Ian said...

I was going to make the same points that Baconeater made, but he beat me to it.

Do research. Stop talking out your ass. Stop making shit up.

You have no proof of anything. Where is your evidence?

Ian said...

Also, another thing I'd like to point out, but forgot to:

You think the scientific view of the Universe is implausible, but then, you have no trouble believing in a magical sky fairy who created the world, sent his son down to be crucified, was resurrected three days later, and flew up to heaven on magical fairy dust. Yeah, the scientific view is so much harder to believe.

By the way, who created your creator?

Makarios said...

“By the way, who created your Creator”

Oh brother! It’s hard to believe that there are still atheist left in the world who are simply unable to think this through. I suppose there’s another one born every minute. Ok, listen carefully. As you know, atheists have no problem with something being eternal or infinite - as long as that something is not Creator God.

However, we know, from science that matter cannot be eternal, nor can matter create itself. If you disagree with science on this issue please explain.

If matter isn’t eternal then there must be a creator / cause that is:
a) external and transcendent to time, space, matter and the laws of physics

b) being external to matter, that cause is immaterial or spiritual

c) being external to and transcendent to time the cause is timeless or eternal

d) being the creator of all that exists the cause is supremely intelligent and powerful

This Cause or Being is what we normally call Creator God

Only those things that BEGIN to exist (like the universe) require a cause.

Creator God did not begin to exist so He does not require a cause for He is self-existent.

The universe DID begin to exist so it DOES require a cause.

“You think the scientific view of the Universe is implausible,”

No, actually every one of the points in my post are based on science and science alone. It is actually atheists who are determined to avoid the findings of science and look for alternatives to the Big Bang.

Ian:
“You have no proof of anything. Where is your evidence?”

Evidence for what. Which of these do you disagree with? Or agree as the case may be? If you agree with bacon then perhaps you could answer the question that he's refusing to deal with.

So if matter can't be eternal and if matter can't create itself, what then?

Flute said...

If matter isn’t eternal then there must be a creator / cause that is
(eternal)

You haven't shown why a creator/cause MUST be eternal and not temporal.

d) being the creator of all that exists the cause is supremely intelligent and powerful.

This doesn't follow either.

Makarios said...

"You haven't shown why a creator/cause MUST be eternal and not temporal."

Hmm, yes actually I did. You haven't studied philosophy I guess. Well, just think about it for a bit. Follow the evidence and you'll see that it HAS to be One or the other.

For the universe to exist, for ANYTHING to exist, either matter / energy OR a supernatural cause has to be eternal. One of them has to have existed, un created. One of them MUST be self-existent. OR

Matter must be able to create itself and therefore pre exist itself chronologically and physically.

HOWEVER: We know, again from science and philosophy that because:

a) The infinite only exists in the abstract and not in reality, AND

b) One cannot traverse the infinite.

Therefore

c)Matter cannot be eternal

We also know, again from science that
d) Matter cannot create itself, nor can it pre exist itself either chronologically nor physically

Therefore
e) There must be an external Cause for the existence of the universe.

Ok? We're good so far? Alright.
Another question that must be asked is, Why is there something instead of nothing. There is absolutely no need for ANYTHING to exist. Yet something does exist.

We know from Big Bang cosmology that prior to the Big Bang, nothing existed, literally NOTHING existed - not time, not space, and certainly not matter. What's more, "Nothing" cannot decide to bring something into existence.

Therefore
f) We are left with an external cause. Which leads us to your next question, and it's a good one.

I said, "being the creator of all that exists, the cause is supremely intelligent and powerful." And you said, This doesn't follow either.

Again, yes it does. The "created" cannot be more intelligent than the "Creator." The created might be able to DO more than the creator (a machine or a bomb), but it will never be more intelligent than the creator. You still with me? Good.

If you think about what I've just shown, not from the Bible but from science itself (it just happens that what science has discovered coheres with the Bible but it isn't FROM the Bible).

If you think about what I've just shown, If matter isn’t eternal then there must be a creator / cause that is:
a) external and transcendent to time, space, matter and the laws of physics

b) being external to, transcendent to, and prior to matter, that cause must be immaterial or spiritual.

c) being external to, transcendent to and prior to time, the cause is timeless or eternal

d) being the creator of all that exists the cause is supremely intelligent and powerful > created cannot be greater Creator

This Cause or Being is what we normally call Creator God

Only those things that BEGIN to exist (like the universe) require a cause.

Creator God did not begin to exist so He does not require a cause for He is self-existent.

The universe DID begin to exist so it DOES require a cause.

Ian said...

"As you know, atheists have no problem with something being eternal or infinite - as long as that something is not Creator God."

That statement is not accurate at all. Nothing, as far as current scientific knowledge shows, can be eternal or infinite. Everything has a beginning. The difference between Science and religion is that Science doesn't claim to know the answers yet. The operative word being "yet." Religion takes advantage of this, makes up an answer and calls it done. Religion doesn't like questions being answered, because it always contradicts religion.

What you're doing is called a Strawman argument. You put words in your opponent's mouth that don't represent the opponent's opinion at all, then you try to refute that argument. All Christians do this, and I'm not sure if it's out of oomplete ignorance of science, or just to be outwardly malicious. Either way, pick up a book on physics. Learn something.

There is no evidence of your god. The burden of proof lies on you. And don't say, "Well, you can't prove that god doesn't exist!" because it is impossible to disprove anything. As Christopher Hitchens once said, "That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."

Prove your god exists, and then we'll talk.

Makarios said...

"That statement is not accurate at all. Nothing, as far as current scientific knowledge shows, can be eternal or infinite."

Yes, well, I know that and you know that and as you state, science itself proves that, but besides you, I've met perhaps one other atheist who also knows that. ALL others that I've met try to promote the idea that matter / universe is in fact eternal. Why do they say that? Because we know from philosophy that either matter is eternal or God is eternal. Why? Because, since matter cannot be eternal, then either matter created itself or God Created matter. If you know of any other options, this would be a good place to not them.
==========

"Everything has a beginning."

Everything that begins to exist has a cause. Yes that's correct.
============

Even though it doesn't come FROM the Bible, everything you've stated so far coheres WITH the Bible. Thank you. I appreciate your open-mind
==========
"Religion takes advantage of this, makes up an answer and calls it done."

Well, I think that what you'll find is that most Christians are working very hard to understand God's Word through science and visa versa. It just happens that at this time in history, the scientific findings regarding origins are pointing directly at a Creator God. Hence, the majority of atheist's mad scramble to find alternative theories that debunk or falsify Big Bang cosmology.
=========
"Either way, pick up a book on physics. Learn something."

I'm not sure what you're getting at. What am I saying about origins that doesn't agree with science?
=========

"There is no evidence of your god."

Of course I think there is a great deal of evidence for a Creator. In fact you're living on part of it.

Why is there something rather than nothing? Are you suggesting that it's rational to say that nothing created everything?