I can’t remember if it was vjack or Hemant. It was someone like that a couple days ago writing that the biggest myth regarding atheists is that they’re immoral people. “I don’t need God in order to be a nice person,” is the mantra by which most atheists operate. Who ever wrote that post was right of course. Far too many people believe that atheists, by definition are more immoral than the rest of the people walking down the street. On the other hand I believe that there is an even greater myth that’s making the rounds.
The greatest myth of all time is that we are in fact good people. In justifying this belief we have this tendency to compare down instead of up. We’re all tempted to do this of course, but it is particularly noticeable in people struggling with an addiction. I’ve heard hundreds of times, “Ya well what about him? He’s the one who should be sitting in this chair.” Well, maybe he should be sitting in that chair, and maybe one day he will be sitting in that chair, but you also need to be here ‘cause you have exactly the same problem.
It’s no different with atheists. Sure as anything, when I suggest that perhaps this or that atheist may not be a “good” person, that person will point to Hitler, or Ted Bundy and say, “Well, I’m not like that.” Ok, but neither are you perfect. You compare down to serial killers when you need to be comparing up to God. If God exists, and I believe that He does, that is the standard by which we’ll be judged. So, no, you may not need God in order to be what you define as a good person but you do need God in order to be forgiven.
Then of course the atheist will go into some song and dance about how this isn’t fair and how God shouldn’t have made us in the first place if He was just going to torture us in hell forever and ever, etc. etc. I’ve even had one atheist tell me that Yes indeed, God SHOULD have made us robots so that we couldn’t do wrong things. Well, whether you agree with the plan or not, God gave us free will. He gave us the ability to choose because there is no other way to know real love. And real love is the greatest entity in the whole universe. Besides, God has done everything possible to make sure you don’t go to hell at all. You disagree? Try this on for size.
- All of us have sinned and deserve to be separated from God forever. It’s completely fair. The playing field is absolutely level. Some people are worse than you and some are better but none of us are good enough to be good enough for heaven. Nevertheless, God rescues those who are not looking for Him, loves those who hate Him, and makes peace with those who are His enemies. 2nd Samuel 7:18; Isaiah 65:1; Romans 10:20
. The rebellious cannot complain because they are in fact guilty of rebellion.
Genesis 3:22; Psalm 14:3
. The saved cannot boast because they have done nothing to deserve salvation.
Romans 3:27,28
The playing field is level.
- God is infinitely just
- Therefore God must judge sin
- God is infinitely loving
- Therefore, God must also love and forgive us
But how can that be done? How can God punish sin without punishing us? Actually it’s quite simple.
God has to punish sin because He’s completely and totally just. No one and no thing gets away with any thing. This is totally opposite from the atheist world view. In the atheist utopia, if you can get away with stealing and elderly woman’s home, or molesting your child, or cheating on your partner or any other vile act during you life on earth, you get away with it forever. And in fact everyone tries to do exactly that to one degree or another.
According to Jesus however, there are no free lunches. God’s justice guarantees that sin will be punished. Someone is gonna pay - Big Time. On the other hand, "God is compassionate, and merciful, slow to anger and full of grace." Because of that, God Himself has decided to take our punishment upon Himself. Why? Why would He do that?
It’s call love. That’s why He’s done it. In the form of Jesus a sinless substitute has taken our place. Why sinless?
Because the substitute, the sacrifice for our sins must not be in any way suffering for His own sins. But why MAKE Jesus be a sacrifice? That’s not fair.
Mmm, no. If He was forced to be our substitute it wouldn’t be fair. The thing is, though, Jesus wasn’t made to be our sacrifice. Because of His infinite Love, this was God’s plan from the very beginning that He in the form of Jesus would VOLUNTEER to be our substitute, our sacrifice. Jesus willingly went to the cross for you and instead of you. Remember, somebody is gonna pay; either Jesus, or you. It’s your choice.
So God’s infinite love for us actually demanded that He take upon Himself His own wrath against sin. That’s why Jesus was able to say, not as a simplistic pat answer, but from ultimate knowledge,
“No greater love has anyone than to lay down His life for His friend.”
Jesus has done that for you!
No one is good enough to be good enough for heaven. Our sin separates us from God. The Bible tells us that the wages of sin is physical death and spiritual separation from God for eternity. But God, through Jesus, has built a bridge by which we can cross from death into life. There is absolutely no need for anyone to experience the horrors of hell. No one needs to experience God’s wrath against sin.
Can you see now why Jesus says that He is the Way, the ONLY Way to God? It’s because He is the only sinless substitute available to pay the penalty for our sins. This isn’t an arbitrary or arrogant statement of “My way is better than your way.” There is simply no other choice or alternative for God to deal with sin without harming us.
“I take no delight in the death of the wicked. So turn from your sin and be saved.”
Creator God has only one way that He can reconcile His infinite love with His infinite justice. That is through the sinless Christ, Jesus.
"So," we might ask, "why doesn’t everyone cross the bridge from death into life?"
Everyone can if they want. Certainly everyone is called. Why do some turn their backs and ignore that calling? What could possibly keep someone from accepting this gift of salvation that is being offered, free of charge to you, even though it cost Jesus a price that we can’t begin to comprehend?
Why indeed, would anyone, perhaps even you, refuse to cross the bridge?
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43 comments:
Isaiah 45:7 (KJV): I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Why did your infintely loving sadomasochist create evil?
That’s probably the best question you’ve asked me. Since I’m only slightly smarter than a brick, all you’ll get from me is an opinion. My opinion may be close to the right answer or a long ways away. I don’t know.
It's obvious that we live in a moral universe. Dawkins thinks not but it seems quite obvious that things really ARE right or wrong, good or bad and such. These aren't just arbitrary lables that we use to function. Why do they exist? Why does evil exist?
As I understand it, we COULD have had a world without evil. Had we made the right decision, evil would have been kept at bay. It would have been kept beyond our experience. However we made a choice that required God to allow us to know what evil is.
Where did evil come from prior to that point in time? I don’t know. My best guess is that just as there cannot be the perception of up without a down, in without an out, hot without cold and light without darkness, there cannot be Love without evil. This is a spiritual reality or law. Bottom line, I don't know the answer to your question.
How does Darwinism explain evil? Or joy for that matter. We certainly don't need joy in order to pro create.
You wrote: It's obvious that we live in a moral universe. Dawkins thinks not but it seems quite obvious that things really ARE right or wrong, good or bad and such. These aren't just arbitrary lables that we use to function. Why do they exist? Why does evil exist?
What do you mean by a moral universe or, for that matter, evil? Morality is a human convention and a convention which is routinely disregarded by both religious believers and atheists. Morality has no meaning outside the realm of human relations.
If I inadvertently stepped on a bug while walking to work this morning, was that evil? If I did it deliberately, would that be evil? Does it matter from the bug's perspective? Obviously not.
How does Darwinism explain evil? I don't even know what you mean. Evolution is the outcome of non-random survival of randomly varying replicators. Evolutionary psychologists will explain much better than I could why evil (i.e. anti-social) behavior is not an evolutionarily stable strategy. Some would argue that sociopathic behavior is an ESS.
In summary, evil as a force does not exist any more than your supposedly ever-loving God does. Evil behavior certainly exists and can be explained by psychologists just like any other behavior. If you define evil as the infliction of suffering, then I believe the existence of evil throughout the world stands as the best proof that anyone can ever produce in support of the non-existence of God. Why does he wipe out thousands of vacationers on the beaches of Phuket? Oh, I forgot - it's all part of his master plan. God works in mysterious ways ....
I agree that we don't need joy in order to procreate. However, evolution has combined the emotion of joy (along with the physical manifestations of arousal and orgasm) with procreation for obvious reasons.
What gives us the most joy? Good food, good friends, family, celebration, (for many) religious rituals, sex. Evolution has no problem explaining the emotion of joy.
“What do you mean by a moral universe or, for that matter, evil?”
Good grief man! You’re the one that brought it up with your passage from Isaiah. What do YOU mean by evil?
==========
What do I mean by a moral universe? Just like the laws of logic and mathematics exist regardless of whether you agree with them or even know of their existence, so too the laws of morality.
There are some things that exist as objectively right and some things that exist as objectively wrong. The moral law exists regardless of whether you obey it or not. The moral law exists regardless of whether you know about it or not. Things like killing an innocent person is objectively wrong and loving others is objectively right. ============
“Morality has no meaning outside the realm of human relations.”
I disagree. I believe that love and morality existed between the persons of the trinity for eons before humans came on the scene.
===========
“How does Darwinism explain evil? I don't even know what you mean.”
If I cleaned out your bank account, would that be evil?
If I stole you child and sold her to someone in the sex trade, would that be evil?
Or would I simply be snubbing my nose at social convention while taking care of this phenotype in a way that I see fit?
Some people, including Dawkins, have made a case that rape is Darwinism at work. And while Dawkins says that rape should be discouraged because of the kind of society in which we live, we should not be surprised to find that it happens. Do you agree or disagree.
==========
“If you define evil as the infliction of suffering, then I believe . . .”
Bad things happen
Therefore God does not exist
C’mon, you’re smarter than that.
===============
"I agree that we don't need joy in order to procreate. However, evolution has combined the emotion of joy (along with the physical manifestations of arousal and orgasm) with procreation for obvious reasons."
The reasons are not at all obvious. Most things pro create without any obvious pleasure or joy. Unless you can come up with some proof, then this is nothing but your opinion.
You write as if you assume atheism is a choice. I have tried to believe. I just *don't*. I was raised by a Christian mom , who was a lovely loving person and I was raised to believe in a god. I just can't. It's not for lack of trying. I just don't. Belief, or lack thereof, isn't necessarily something one chooses- I don't believe because I can't believe. I wouldn't mind believing. I bet it would be comforting. It was when I was a kid. But I stopped believing in God around the time I stopped believing in Santa Claus. I just don't believe. It's really not that big a deal, you know? I can't will it on, though......it's not like I can throw a switch and believe in God. All this vitriol towards Atheists. Why does it exist? It makes no sense. At the very least you should , I guess, feel a bit sorry for us. I wish you would just kind of leave us alone. I tend to admire religions that do not seek converts a bit more than I admire Christianity these days. I am not convertible ( nor am I a sofa...ok, just being silly there).
So you aren't interested at all in why we're here, how things came to be, what we're here for and all that?
As to the vitriol, well, I'm a lot better than I used to be but I still allow myself to get drawn in to match kind with kind. If you cruise through some of my posts, you'll see, I think that there is far more vitriol coming from your side that mine, but, whatever.
The convertible / sofa thing was a little bit funny. I'm just tired from mowing the grass so . . .
Thanks for dropping by. I do wish you well.
Of course I am interested in how things came to be. Hence my interest in science which, so far, has given us a lot more information about how the universe works than has the bible.
I really would like you to address the other posters question about the Tsunami though. Cause I just don't see why anyone would worship a god that does stuff like that. If , in fact , you believe that God does that stuff or allows stuff like that to happen. If there is some deity involved in stuff like that then He/She/It/ or Them are not my cup of tea. That God(s) doesn't seem to like people much.
BTW, my kid is an evolutionary biologist and has lots to say about Altruism and Evolution..
Some of which you can read about here : http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/altruism-biological/
Among other places.
"That God(s) doesn't seem to like people much."
That God died for you so that you wouldn't have to spend eternity separated from the only real Love in the universe.
Isn't it possible that there are things we don't understand about the why's of disasters? Have you never experienced good coming out of suffering? Have you never noted that virtues are never developed in times of ease?
Your life must be very, very lonely if you think that your God is "the only real Love in the universe." Your anger and bitterness towards the non-religious makes quite a bit more sense to me now.
It's the only real love; a giving love without expecting anything in return.
By andlarge, humans simply aren't able to love that way.
Why do you assume that disagreeing with someone can't be done without bitterness? Is that how it is with you?
There is no justice to be had by punishing a finite amount of sin with an infinite amount of suffering.
But, hey, I'm sure that telling people that they can buy their way out of a finite amount of suffering doesn't fill the coffers quite as much.
So tell me this... Do you search for blogs that mention atheism and then leave comments on them so you can lure them here to try to convert them? Frankly I can't imagine how you ended up on mine otherwise...
But that's cool. Everyone has a mission or two- I just am not ripe for conversion. If I ever am I will drop you a line.
"Do you search for blogs that mention atheism and then leave comments on them so you can lure them here to try to convert them?"
I doubt that any conversions are going to happen. However, I'm fascinated by the way people think and to me, atheist thinking is so strange and contradictory that I find myself commenting on many of the statements made by atheists.
...in order to be a nice person,
...atheist may not be a “good” person
...are you perfect?
Notice how it changes from "nice" to "perfect".
"Besides, God has done everything possible to make sure you don’t go to hell at all. You disagree?"
Yes. He has come down to my room to talk to me, never buys me a pizza...
But seriously, he tells a few people in the middle east some stuff, does some stuff in the middle east, leaves no traces, hides, is invisible... Reports get conflicted, other people get other reports from other gods... He hasn't done "everything possible". He's done near nothing. If he's all-powerful, why the hiding and inaction, how about some proof? He is going to TORTURE you if you make the wrong choice!
In the atheist utopia, if you can get away with stealing and elderly woman’s home, or molesting your child, or cheating on your partner or any other vile act during you life on earth, you get away with it forever. And in fact everyone tries to do exactly that to one degree or another.
Everyone tries to molest children to one degree or another?
Because of that, God Himself has decided to take our punishment upon Himself.
So why still torture people? If the punishment is all payed for - "It is finished!" - why still torture people?
Why indeed, would anyone, perhaps even you, refuse to cross the bridge?
'cos there is no proof that the bridge exists...
"In the atheist utopia, if you can get away with stealing and elderly woman’s home, or molesting your child, or cheating on your partner or any other vile act during you life on earth, you get away with it forever. And in fact everyone tries to do exactly that to one degree or another."
Um, no. You don't get away with it forever. There are laws in place. You will be caught. Not only that, but you have your conscience to wrestle with afterwards. You think atheists are immoral, but the only reason Christians act all moral is because they're afraid of going to hell if they don't behave. That, to me, is not moral at all. It's completely reprehensible.
You say that atheists beliefs are contradictory, yet you believe that God, in all his power, gave birth to himself on Earth so he could kill himself on Earth to save everyone from their sins. Does that not seem contradictory to you?
By the way, I'd like to know what you mean by saying that atheist beliefs are contradictory. You didn't give examples.
Ian:
“You think atheists are immoral,”
No I don’t. I say exactly the opposite in many, many places. You may be a far better individual than I. Neither did I did I say anything about the world-view of the child molester or house stealer. You just assumed that I meant atheist. If you like we could say that "In an atheist world-view a Christian could steal and elderly woman’s home and if he doesn’t get caught on earth he gets away with it forever. Not so in the Christian world-view."
===============
“Does that not seem contradictory to you?”
Not if you understand the trinity and the nature of an all powerful God.
==================
"By the way, I'd like to know what you mean by saying that atheist beliefs are contradictory. You didn't give examples."
Sure. On the one hand atheists say they live by science and the scientific method of inquiry. But on the other hand, when it comes to origins of the universe, atheists flatly ignore the findings of science and say things like:
“The universe doesn’t need a cause. It just happened.”
“Nothing can create everything.”
“There can be an infinite regress of cause.”
“Matter can be eternal.”
“Matter can create itself.”
All of these are flatly denied by science but proposed by atheists in their desperate attempt to avoid the metaphysical implications of “Everything that begins to exist has a Cause.”
===========
Chris
...in order to be a nice person,
...atheist may not be a “good” person
...are you perfect?
Notice how it changes from "nice" to "perfect".
Yes, and?
=============
“If he's all-powerful, why the hiding and inaction, how about some proof?”
He’s done everything possible while leaving in place, or ensuring our ability to make a free will choice to accept or reject the existence of God. Plato said it best, “God has given us just enough evidence so that those who are looking for Him will be able to find Him and those who wish to reject Him will not be able to find Him accidentally.”
God will not force you to believe in Him. Nor will He force you to spend eternity with Him. The only people who will be spending eternity in the presence of God will be those who WANT to be there. For atheists who can't even handle someone saying Merry Christimas to them, being in heaven for eternity really would be hell.
==============
“Everyone tries to molest children to one degree or another?”
No, everyone tries to get away with things, to one degree or another.
==========
“So why still torture people?”
First of all, God does not torture anyone. Hell, which is the complete absence of God’s love, is simply the final destination of the road upon which you’ve been travelling for your whole life. You want to live apart from God? Fine. He’ll say to you one day, “Thy will be done.”
=================
“If the punishment is all payed for . . .”
If I give you a ticket for a concert to see your favourite band, is that good enough to see the group? No. You actually have to go to the concert? God has paid the price for your sins, but He can hardly give you that forgiveness if you reject His very existence and/or say there is nothing for Him to forgive.
============
God has paid the price for your sins, but He can hardly give you that forgiveness if you reject His very existence and/or say there is nothing for Him to forgive.
Yes He can. I have forgiven people who don't even know I'm alive. I have been terribly wronged but wouldn't throw people into a "lake of fire".
First of all, God does not torture anyone. Hell, which is the complete absence of God’s love, is simply the final destination of the road upon which you’ve been travelling for your whole life. You want to live apart from God? Fine. He’ll say to you one day, “Thy will be done.”
"Lake of fire" You don't believe the Bible?
YHWH saying “Thy will be done." to a human!!! I'm no longer a Christian but that sounds so blasphemous it's unbelievable.
He’s done everything possible while leaving in place, or ensuring our ability to make a free will choice to accept or reject the existence of God.
Nonsense, the angels had more proof and even they could reject God.
"that sounds so blasphemous it's unbelievable."
And God can't do what He wants with His own creation? He's simply saying, "You want to live without Me? Ok. Have it your way."
Why would we think that the "rules" for angels would be anything similar to the ones that apply to us? As far as we an tell, we humans are the only creatures in the universe that have free will, us and God Himself.
Chris is saying this-
“Thy will be done." in the Lord's prayer "Thy" refers to God.
You have God saying a part of the Lord's Prayer "Thy will be done" with "Thy" refering to a person.
As far as we an tell, we humans are the only creatures in the universe that have free will, us and God Himself.
Quick question-how did a third of the angels "fall" then?
“So why still torture people?”
First of all, God does not torture anyone. Hell, which is the complete absence of God’s love
So, can you please clear something up for me?? Can you please point out which passages in the Bible you ignore? Is it whole books, or just certain passages? Which translation are you reading?
Matthew 18:8-9 and Mark 9:43-49 are pretty clear about hellfire.
Unless, that is, you consider burning in a lake of fire for all eternity something akin to "advanced interrogation techniques" or nothing more than "fraternity hazing antics."
He doesn't torture people, he just creates a lake of fire. And he throws people in.
“Thy will be done." in the Lord's prayer "Thy" refers to God.”
Dear child, just how young are you? Yes Thy refers to God “in the Lord’s Prayer.” However "thy" happens to be an old English word that simply means “You” or “Your”
God is giving you exactly what you want, an existence without any influence by Him. Thy will be done means, "Ok, if that's what you want."
=============
“Quick question-how did a third of the angels "fall" then?”
That was a technical error on my part. Regardless, unlike the angels, you still have a chance to turn back, to correct your mistake. You don’t have to remain God’s enemy. The “fallen” angels have no such choice. Their eternity is sealed.
===========
Comrade, you're missing the point. Yes, hell will be horrific beyond anything you can imagine, but it will be YOUR choice, NOT God's force that puts you there. Besides the physical agony, I think much more torturous will be, "Look what I've done to myself! Look what will happen to my children when they die. They believed me when I told them that this place doesn't exist."
"Morality has no meaning outside the realm of human relations."
That's about the only thing that the "Atheist Missionary" and any of his coreligionists have said that makes a modicum of sense within their world view, but only a modicum. Actually, to be precise, in a godless world that somehow happened by a completely accidental confluence of matter and energy (with no comment about where these came from), MORALITY IS MEANINGLESS, PERIOD! ... Which raises an interesting question as to how and why these same atheists get all lathered up on questions of good and evil, right and wrong. Why bother?
Dear child, just how young are you? Yes Thy refers to God “in the Lord’s Prayer.” However "thy" happens to be an old English word that simply means “You” or “Your”
God is giving you exactly what you want, an existence without any influence by Him. Thy will be done means, "Ok, if that's what you want."
I am aware of old English.
But you putting those words in the mouth of God is still offensive.
Even more than the "daily bread" advert for a bakery that was banned here in the eighties.
Still, not as offensive as "OBEY OR BE TORTURED" that Christianity preaches.
Yes, hell will be horrific beyond anything you can imagine, but it will be YOUR choice, NOT God's force that puts you there.
That's quite the cop-out.
God: "I've cleverly set a thousand land mines in this field and placed a toddler in the middle. I've very carefully instructed him that if he walks in one particular direction, he'll be fine. I've then set the biggest shiniest toy in existence in the middle of the largest concentration of land mines."
Toddler: ::blows up::
God: "I warned him. It was his choice. I am still just and loving!"
Leo B. Vadalà: Actually, to be precise, in a godless world that somehow happened by a completely accidental confluence of matter and energy (with no comment about where these came from), MORALITY IS MEANINGLESS, PERIOD!
How do you figure?
Let me quote Boondock Saints: "Do not kill, do not rape, do not steal, these are principles which every man of every faith can embrace...
These are not polite suggestions, these are codes of behavior"
Simply because you cannot conceive of morality in the absence of a deity to deliver it to you does not mean that none exists.
Còmhradh wrote: God: "I've cleverly set a thousand land mines in this field and placed a toddler in the middle.
That is the best analogy to Christidiocy that I have seen all year. I am going to crack a Stella Artois in your honor.
Còmhradh said...
"How do you figure? ...
Simply because you cannot conceive of morality in the absence of a deity to deliver it to you does not mean that none exists."
I will respond with material I have posted elsewhere...
Darwin’s Origin of the Species was based on the premise that life evolved (i.e., improved) on the basis of natural selection, i.e., survival of the fittest. If this is the case, who cares about victims, as long as the victim does not happen to be me? What works perfectly well in the animal kingdom should work equally well for human societies. (Actually, what makes humans so special that we insist on separating ourselves from the animal kingdom?)
Oh, but you protest, we are a well advanced society in a technological age. We have evolved to the point where we are far beyond the natural selection processes of the animal kingdom, and we choose to live in a well ordered society. Well, perhaps the best example of a well ordered society is Nazi Germany. You gotta hand it to Adolf. He took the defeated economic basket case that was post-WWI Germany and turned it into a thriving society, revved up its economic engines, and turned it into a model of efficiency. The trains ran on time in Germany. And it was a perfect model of Darwin’s theory of survival of the fittest, as it included in its program the elimination of elements of society that it considered undesirable obstacles to an efficient, well ordered and pure society.
If there is no God, who are we to say that the Nazis were wrong, or that our concern for victims is any better or advanced or noble than their taking natural selection to the next degree? Where did we come up with this silly notion of human rights and dignity?
Why bother?
Are you suggesting that the way of salvation is confusing for you?
Jesus says that it's so simple that even a child can understand it. Why can't you, I wonder? What is it about these verses that is so hard for you to understand?
Mark 16:16 - Jesus said, “Those who believe and are baptized will be saved but those who refuse to believe will be condemned.”
John 1:12,13 - Jesus said, “Unless you are born again, you can never get into the kingdom of heaven.” There is no eternal doom awaiting those who trust Him save them. But those who don’t trust Him have already been tried and condemned for not believing in the only Son of God.
John 3:3 - “I tell you the truth, no one an see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.”
John 3:16-18 - “For God so loved that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe in him stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.”
John 5:24 - Jesus said, “I say emphatically that anyone who listens to My message and believes in God who sent me has eternal life and will NEVER be damned for his sins. He has crossed from death into life.”
John 6:40 - “For my Father’s will is that every one who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”
John 8:24 - Jesus said, “For unless you believe that I am the Son of God, the Messiah, you will die in your sins.”
John 14:6 - “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
Acts 13:38,39 - In this man Jesus there is forgiveness for your sins. Everyone who trusts in Him is freed from all guilt and declared righteous.
Romans 3:27,28 - Our acquittal is not based on our good deeds, it is based on what Christ has done and our faith in Him. So it is we are saved, by faith in Christ and not by the good things we do.
Romans 9:32 - Because they were trying to be saved by keeping the law and being good instead of by depending on faith, they have stumbled over that great stumbling stone, Jesus.
Galatians 2:19 - It was through reading the Bible that I came to realize that I could never find God’s favour by trying and failing to obey the law. I came to realize that acceptance with God comes by believing in Christ.
1st Thessalonians 1:8,9 - The Lord Jesus will bring judgement on those who do not wish to know God and those who reject His plan to save them through our Lord Jesus Christ. They will be punished in everlasting hell, forever separated from the Lord, never to see the glory of His power.
In Darwinist / Fascist terms, Hitler's biggest mistake was stepping outside his own borders.
If he'd stayed inside Germany, the rest of the world would have let him fry Jews to this very day.
Darwin’s Origin of the Species was based on the premise that life evolved (i.e., improved) on the basis of natural selection, i.e., survival of the fittest. If this is the case, who cares about victims, as long as the victim does not happen to be me?
If you've ever read Darwin, you might actually be able to answer that question on your own. It's called Kin Selection.
Argumentum ad Hitlerum
::yawn::
If the best you can muster is
if(!$yahweh){ $hitler = true; }
then please rationalize your omnipresent, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent deity allowing the holocaust.
If [Hitler had] stayed inside Germany, the rest of the world would have let him fry Jews to this very day.
Unless it was determined that he was sitting on a stockpile of resources that someone else with bigger guns wanted for themselves.
Còmhradh said...
"If you've ever read Darwin, you might actually be able to answer that question on your own. It's called Kin Selection."
Is that the best YOU can muster???
The Hitler argument is just one of countless illustrations of the basic premise which you refuse to address: If matter and energy is all there ever was, then morality has no basis and is utterly meaningless. Even utilitarianism is meaningless, because what is useful for you may not be what is useful for me. In fact, everything is meaningless: As I have posted elsewhere:
"If there is no God, there are no answers out there, and whatever answers you might find would not matter anyway.... In a godless world limited to physics and biochemistry, all musings about beauty and wonder and truth and good and evil are pure bullshit, and I mean that almost literally, because in an atheistic world, we all are or will become the biochemical equivalent of excrement. Without God, it is all a cruel joke, and not even a joke, because there would be No One to tell it. (And humor is meaningless too.)"
Is that the best YOU can muster???
It's all I needed to muster. You asked a basic question that anyone who had actually read the source material should be able to answer.
The Hitler argument is just one of countless illustrations
Yet, people on your side of the argument can be reliable counted upon to go to it each and every time, as if you have no other fall back...
If matter and energy is all there ever was, then morality has no basis and is utterly meaningless.
Unless it serves a purpose for advancement, which it does, as I have already pointed out.
If there is no God, there are no answers out there
This makes no sense. You're basically saying that if there is no god, then what lies on the other side of a door you've never opened is nothing. Ridiculous. Illogical.
In a godless world limited to physics and biochemistry, all musings about beauty and wonder and truth and good and evil are pure bullshit
I'm sad for you, I really am.
I don't need a god to see beauty in things. I actually find physics and biochemistry to be quite beautiful in their own right.
I will agree that good and evil are pure bullshit, though.
because in an atheistic world, we all are or will become the biochemical equivalent of excrement.
True, but that doesn't stop me from enjoying the world while I'm in it. Because even in the Christian view, your meat suit is still going to end up as so much worm food.
Without God, it is all a cruel joke
The irony of this statement is actually funny.
Shorter Leo: "I can't conceive of these things, so they must not exist!"
Còmhradh said...
"I don't need a god to see beauty in things. I actually find physics and biochemistry to be quite beautiful in their own right."
And exactly what is it that defines beauty? What makes a sunset or a waterfall any more pleasant or attractive than a decomposing corpse or the smokestacks of Gary Indiana or the drab Romanian apartment buildings built during the Ceauşescu regime?
"I will agree that good and evil are pure bullshit, though."
Except, of course, when evil is perpetrated on you.
And exactly what is it that defines beauty?
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
What makes a sunset or a waterfall any more pleasant or attractive than a decomposing corpse or the smokestacks of Gary Indiana or the drab Romanian apartment buildings built during the Ceauşescu regime?
Each of these is beautiful and interesting in its own way. A corpse's decomposition may be revolting on its face, but in it I see the cycle of life. Smokestacks are self-imposed destruction made manifest, but they underscore our insatiable desire to master our environment, even as we fail to grasp the consequences. And those Romanian tenements? Simplicity of design. I wouldn't necessarily favor these over contemplating a painting or watching a butterfly, but I can find beauty in them.
"I will agree that good and evil are pure bullshit, though."
Except, of course, when evil is perpetrated on you.
Actually, no. I reject entirely the notions of "good" and "evil." They're horribly misused and misunderstood constructs that are arbitrarily and subjectively applied.
Darwin’s Origin of the Species was based on the premise that life evolved (i.e., improved) on the basis of natural selection, i.e., survival of the fittest. If this is the case, who cares about victims, as long as the victim does not happen to be me? What works perfectly well in the animal kingdom should work equally well for human societies.
Description not prescription.
Flute said...
"Description not prescription."
And your point is?
My point is that if the Darwinist Description is correct, any Prescription is pointless.
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