Sunday, March 29, 2009

Atheists sure know their Bible - Not!

Some atheist who calls himself Friendly Passerby stated, “There is nothing in the Bible that is beyond the knowledge of man at that time.”

This wasn’t his stupidest statement but it was right up there. He also made some comment about our universe just being last in an infinite cycle of universes. That of course is either profoundly ignorant or a deliberate lie. At any rate:

A common manner in which the Bible is criticised by anti-theists is to call it a Bronze Age Book. Or they say that it was written by camel jockeys or similar racist epithets. The Bible may be a book from the Bronze Age and before, but to say that it contains nothing but common knowledge, well . . .

1) In the Bible, we have a Book that diagnoses the atheist problem -
“No one is without excuse. The universe declares the existence of God.”
To date, nothing has been able to refute or falsify that claim.

2) The Bible tells us -
“What is visible is made from what is not visible”
- This 1,500 years before the microscope was invented.

3) The Bible tells us -
“God sits enthroned above the CIRCLE of the earth . . .”
- This thousands of years before people found out that earth wasn’t flat. Now, atheists will tell you that the flat earth concept came from what the Bible taught. This is not the case. It’s just yet another example of atheists being incapable of interpreting Scripture.

4) The Bible tells us -
“The earth will wear out like and old garment, There will be famines in many lands and war without ceasing,”
- this 2,000 years before anyone dreamed that the earth could run short of anything.

5) The Bible tells us -
“The Lord suspends the earth over nothing.”
- This, 5,000 years before modern man discovered it’s truth. Until then ancients speculated that the earth sat on a strong foundation or was supported by a mythological god.

6) The Bible tells us -
“The number of the stars are like the sand which is on the seashore.”
- This, thousands and thousands of years before the telescope. Without the telescope only ~ 5,000 stars are visible to the naked eye. To say they were uncountable would have seemed preposterous. Yet it’s the truth.

7) This is a Book that -
Predicted the Israelites would be scattered throughout the world, that Israel as a nation would disappear only to return as a nation “in one day”
- this 3,000 years before the return of Israel as a nation took place.

1948 was the first time since 70 A.D. that the people of Israel have been brought back to control their homeland.
Ezekiel - 37:21 (Written 597 years before the birth of Christ) - For the Lord God says, “I am gathering the people of Israel from among the nations and bringing them home from around the world to their own homeland, to unify them into one nation.”
Ezekiel 38:12 - “I will go to those once desolate cities that are now filled with people again, those who have returned from all the nations, and the whole earth revolves around them. This will happen in the distant future, in the latter years of history.

The new state of Israel now contains people who have come from 100 different countries, speaking 60 different languages and the trek homeward continues to this day.

Zechariah 12:2,3,7, & 9 (Written 520 years before the birth of Christ) - I will make Jerusalem and Judah like a cup of poison to all the nearby nations that send their armies to surround her. Jerusalem will be a heavy stone burdening the world and though all the nations of the world unite in an attempt to move her, they will all be crushed. For my plan is to destroy all nations that come against Jerusalem.

Zechariah 2: 4 & 7 - Jerusalem will some day be so full of people she won’t have room enough for all. I scattered you to the winds, but I will bring you back again.

This is the whole problem with Palestine and Israel right now. There is not enough room for all of the Jews coming home and they are building settlements in Palestinian territory.

According to this atheist all this was common knowledge during the time it was written. And then we have the common knowledge of who the Saviour would be a thousand or more years in advance.

From the seed of Abraham
The Prophecy - Genesis 22:18 (Written about 1440 years before Jesus was born)
“And in your seed all the nations of the world shall be blessed.” (God speaking to Abraham).
The Fulfilment of that Prophecy - Matthew 1:1
“The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.”

This determines that of all the races of the world, we could look for The Saviour to come from the Hebrew race.

Son of Isaac
The Prophecy - Genesis 21:12 (Written about 1440 years before Jesus was born).
“For Isaac is the son through whom My promise will be fulfilled.” (See Matthew chapter 1for a continuation of Jesus’ genealogy record)

Abraham had two sons. God eliminates one half of the lineage of Abraham in prophesying the lineage of Jesus.

Son of Jacob
The Prophecy - Numbers 24:17 (Written about 1400 years before Jesus was born)
“I see in the future of Israel, far down the distant trail that there shall come a star from Jacob, this ruler of Israel.”

Isaac had two sons. God eliminates one half of the lineage of Isaac prophesying the lineage of Jesus

Tribe of Judah
The Prophecy - Genesis 49:10 (Written about 1440 years before Jesus was born).
“The sceptre shall not depart from Judah until Shiloh comes and to him shall be the obedience of the peoples.”

Jacob had 12 sons out of which came the 12 tribes of Israel. God eliminates eleven of the twelve tribes of Israel in prophesying the lineage of Jesus.

Family line of Jesse
The Prophecy - Isaiah 11:1 (Written about 690 years before Jesus was born).
“The royal line of Jesse will be cut off, chopped down like a tree. But from the stump will grow a shoot, yes a new branch, the Messiah from the old root.”

House of David
The Prophecy - Isaiah 23:5 (Written about 690 years before Jesus was born).
“ For the time is coming says the Lord, when I will place a righteous branch upon King David’s throne. He shall be a King who shall rule with wisdom and justice.”

Jesse had at least eight sons. Now God eliminates all of Jesse’s sons except David in prophesying the lineage of Jesus.

Born at Bethlehem
The Prophecy - Micah 5:2 - (Written about 750 years before Jesus was born)
“O Bethlehem you are but a small Judean village, yet you will be the birthplace of my King who is alive from ages past.
The Fulfilment of that Prophecy - Matthew 2:1
“Jesus was born in the town of Bethlehem of Judea.”

God, in prophecy, now eliminates all the cities and towns in the world but one for the entrance of His Son to planet earth.

Preceded by a messenger
The Prophecy - Isaiah 40:3 (Written about 690 years before Jesus was born).
“I hear a voice calling in the wilderness, make a road for the Lord.”
The Fulfilment of that Prophecy - Matthew 3:1
“John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness.”

Ministry to begin in Galilee
The Prophecy - Isaiah 9:1 (Written about 690 years before Jesus was born).
“But there will be no more gloom for her who was in anguish in the land of Zebulun and Neaphtali, by the way of the sea on the other side of the Jordan, Galilee of the gentiles.”
The Fulfilment of that Prophecy - Matthew 4:12
“He withdrew into Galilee and leaving Nazareth He came and settled in Capernaum, which is by the sea, in the region of Zebulun and Neaphtale. From that time Jesus began to preach.”

Ministry of Miracles
The Prophecy - Isaiah 35:5 & 6 (Written about 690 years before Jesus was born).
“Then the eyes of the blind will be opened, the ears of the deaf will be unstopped, the lame will leap like deer, the tongue of the dumb will shout for joy.”
The Fulfilment of that Prophecy - Matthew 11:4 & 5
Jesus said, “Tell John about the miracles you’ve seen Me do, the blind I’ve healed, the deaf who hear and the dead raised to life. And tell him about Me preaching the good news.”

Teacher of parables
The Prophecy - Psalm 78:2 (Written over many centuries but completed about 300 years before Jesus was born).
“I will open my mouth in a parable. I will utter dark sayings of old.”
The Fulfilment of that Prophecy - Matthew 13:14
“All these things spoke Jesus to the multitudes in parables and He was not talking to them without a parable.”


Enter Jerusalem on a donkey
The Prophecy - Zechariah 9:9 (Written about 520 years before Jesus was born)
“Rejoice greatly oh My people, shout with joy, for look, your King is coming , He is the righteous one, the victor, yet He is lowly, riding on a donkey’s colt.”
The Fulfilment of that Prophecy - Matthew 21:2,4, & 5
“Just as you enter the village you will find a donkey tied there with its colt beside it. Untie them and bring them here.”

Stumbling stone to the unbelievers
The Prophecy - Psalm 118:22 (Written over many centuries but completed about 300 years before Jesus was born).
“The stone which the builders rejected, has become the corner stone.”
The Fulfilment of that Prophecy - 1 Peter 2:7 (Peter was one of Jesus’ closest friends and followers. In any list of disciples, Peter’s name always appears first. Peter was an eyewitness to the ministry, death and resurrection of Jesus)
“He is very precious to you who believe and to those who reject Him, well the same stone that was rejected by the builders has become the cornerstone. He is the stone that some will stumble over and the rock that will make them fall. They will stumble because they will not listen to God’s word or obey it.”

Resurrection
The Prophecy - Psalm 16:10 (Written over many centuries but completed about 300 years before Jesus was born).
“For you will not leave me among the dead. You will not allow your beloved one to rot in the grave.”
The Fulfilment of that Prophecy - Acts 2:31
“He was neither abandoned to hades nor did His flesh suffer decay.”
(Acts was written by Luke. He was a physician and a historian of extraordinary detail and accuracy. The Gospel bearing his name was the work of what today might be called investigative journalism. Luke was a convert to Christianity and took part in the ministry of the early Church).

The following were prophesied from 1000 - 500 years before Jesus was born but were all fulfilled in one day.

Betrayed by a friend
The Prophecy - Psalm 41:9 - “Even my close friend in whom I trusted, who ate my bread has lifted up his heel against me.”
The Fulfilment of that Prophecy - Matthew 26:49 & 56 - “So now Judas came straight to a Jesus and embraced Him in a friendly manner. Jesus said, “My friend, go and do what you have come for.”

Sold for 30 Pieces of silver
The Prophecy - Zephaniah 11:12 - “If you like give me my pay, what ever I’m worth. So they counted out 30 silver coins.”
The Fulfilment of that Prophecy - Matthew 26:15 - “Judas asked how much will you pay me and they gave him 30 silver coins.”

Money thrown into God’s house
The Prophecy - Zechariah 11:13 - “And the Lord told me, toss it into the temple treasury this magnificent sum they value you at. So I took the thirty coins and threw them in.”
The Fulfilment of that Prophecy - Matthew 27:5 - “And he threw the pieces of silver into the sanctuary and departed.”

Forsaken by his disciples
The Prophecy - Zechariah 13:7 - “Strike down the shepherd and the sheep will scatter.”
The Fulfilment of that Prophecy - Matthew 26:56 - “Jesus said, This is all happening to fulfil the words of the prophets. At that point all the disciples deserted Him and fled.”

Accused by false witness
The Prophecy - Psalm 35:11 - “These evil men swear to a lie. They accuse me of things I have never even heard about.”
The Fulfilment of that Prophecy - Matthew 26:59 - “The entire Jewish supreme court assembled and looked for witnesses who would lie about Jesus.”

Quiet before his accusers
The Prophecy - Isaiah 53:7 - “He was oppressed and He was afflicted yet He never said a word.”
The Fulfilment of that Prophecy - Matthew 27:12 - “And while He was being accused by the chief priests and elders, he made no answer.”

Hands and feet pierced
The Prophecy - Psalm 22:16 - “They pierced my hands and feet.”
The Fulfilment of that Prophecy - Luke 23:33 - “And when they came to the place called the skull, they crucified him.”

Crucifixion had not come into the Jewish system until hundreds of years after Psalms was written. It was unheard of at the time of Psalms.

Made intercession for his persecutors
The Prophecy - Isaiah 53:12 - “Yet He bore the sin of many and interceded for the transgressors.”
The Fulfilment of that Prophecy - Luke 23:34 - “Father forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”

Hated without cause
The Prophecy - Psalm 69:4 - “Those who hate me without a cause are more than the hairs of my head.”
The Fulfilment of that Prophecy - John 15:25 - “Jesus said, “But they have done this in order that the word may be fulfilled - They hated Me without cause.”

Friends stood afar off
The Prophecy - Psalm 38:11 - My loved ones and my friends stay away, even my own family stands at a distance.”
The Fulfilment of that Prophecy - Luke 23:49 - “All His acquaintances and the women who accompanied Him from Galilee were standing at a distance seeing these things.”

People shook their heads
The Prophecy - Psalm 109:25 - I also have become a reproach to them. When they see me they wag their heads.”
The Fulfilment of that Prophecy - Matthew 27:39 - Those who were passing by were hurling abuse at Him, wagging their heads.”

Garments parted and lots cast
The Prophecy - Psalm 22:18 - They divided my garments among them and for my clothing they cast lots.”
The Fulfilment of that Prophecy - John 19:23 & 24 - The soldiers took his outer garments and made four parts. They said “lets not tear the tunic, but cast lots for it.” (John was Jesus’ closest friend. He looked after Jesus’ mother after her son’s execution. He was an eyewitness to the ministry, death and resurrection of Jesus).

Gall and vinegar offered Him
The Prophecy - Psalm 69:21 - They gave me gall for my food. For my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.
The Fulfilment of that Prophecy - Matthew 27:34 - They gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall and after tasting it, He was unwilling to drink.

His forsaken cry
The Prophecy - Psalm 22:1 - “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me.”
The Fulfilment of that Prophecy - Matthew 27:46 - About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken Me.”

Committed himself to God
The Prophecy - Psalm 31:5 - “Into they hand I commit My spirit.”
The Fulfilment of that Prophecy - Matthew 27:46 - Jesus cried out with a loud voice, “Father into they hands I commit My spirit.”

Bones not broken
The Prophecy - Psalm 34:20 - He keeps all his bones, not one of them is broken.”
The Fulfilment of that Prophecy - John 19:33 - When they saw that He was already dead, they did not break his legs.”

His side pierced
The Prophecy - Zechariah 12:10 - They will look on me whom they have pierced.
The Fulfilment of that Prophecy - John 19:34 - But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear.

Darkness at noon
The Prophecy - Amos 8:9 - I shall make the sun go down at noon and make the earth dark in broad daylight.
The Fulfilment of that Prophecy - Matthew 27:45 - Now from the sixth hour darkness fell upon all the land until the ninth hour.

Buried in a rich man’s grave
The Prophecy - Isaiah 53:9 - He was buried like a criminal in a rich man’s grave.”
The Prophecy - Matthew 27:57 - There came a rich man from Arimathea and took the body and laid it in his own tomb.

Jesus had no control over the prophecies about:
1. Place of birth
2. Time of birth
3. Manner of birth
4. Betrayal
5. Manner of death
6. People’s reaction
7 Piercing, and
8. Burial

Professor Peter Stoner, Editor of ‘Science Digest’ has calculate that the odds of the 20 prophecies of what happened to Jesus on the last day of His life here on earth, to be 10 to the power of minus 157, against them coming true in one man, accidentally. Scientists agree that 10 to minus 50 is the same as zero - impossible.

To those who encountered Him but refused to believe what He taught, Jesus had this to say.
(John 5:46 & 47) Jesus said, “It is not I who will accuse you before the Father, Moses will. For you have refused to believe Moses. He wrote about Me but you refuse to believe him, so you refuse to believe Me. Since you don’t believe what Moses wrote, no wonder you don’t believe Me either.”
(Matthew 13:17) Jesus said, “For I tell the truth, many prophets longed to see what you see and hear what you hear.”
(Mark 12:36) Jesus said, “When David spoke, the Holy Spirit was speaking through him when he said it.”
(John 10:34) Jesus said, “The Scriptures cannot be untrue.”

To neglect such awesome evidence will surely come at an awesome cost. Jesus promises however that to respond positively will come with an awesome reward.
Jesus was talking about the same Scriptures we have today. In the next two verses, Jesus indicates that “all” of the Old Testament included prophecy of His coming.

(Luke 24:25 & 27) “How foolish you have been and how slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken.” And beginning with the Law and all the Prophets, Jesus explained to them what was said in all the Scripture about Him.”
(Luke 24:44) Jesus said, “Everything must be fulfilled that is written about Me in the law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

Perhaps this atheist was thinking of something else when he said, “There is nothing in the Bible that is beyond the knowledge of man at that time.”

Regardless of atheist’s ignorance, human nature has not changed one iota since the Bible was written. This Book has described human nature perfectly, beginning with Genesis and following through to Revelation. Anything of value that I’ve learned during years of education regarding human nature can also be found in the Bible.

One thing that the Bible bears out is that Truth is not affected by time.

22 comments:

VeridicusX said...

“1) In the Bible, we have a Book that diagnoses the atheist problem -
“No one is without excuse. The universe declares the existence of God.”

To date, nothing has been able to refute or falsify that claim.”

Actually, the Universe itself refutes that claim!
Noun 1. universe - everything that exists anywhere;
God is traditionally defined as “that than which none greater is conceivable”. If God is part of everything that exists anywhere, then the whole is greater than the part. So, God is either less than or the same as the Universe.
Your assertion is therefore false.

“3) The Bible tells us -
“God sits enthroned above the CIRCLE of the earth . . .”
- This thousands of years before people found out that earth wasn’t flat. Now, atheists will tell you that the flat earth concept came from what the Bible taught. This is not the case. It’s just yet another example of atheists being incapable of interpreting Scripture.”

Actually, the Bible teaches that the Earth is a flat square circle!?!
There is a word for sphere in Hebrew (Isaiah 22:18) and this quote does not use it. There are enough websites showing (from the Bible) that the Bible offers a flat earth cosmology. If you don’t believe those, then just read your Bible with an attitude called honesty. Try it, you’ll be amazed at how truthfulness and honesty are so fulfilling and refreshing.

“5) The Bible tells us -
“The Lord suspends the earth over nothing.”
- This, 5,000 years before modern man discovered it’s truth. Until then ancients speculated that the earth sat on a strong foundation or was supported by a mythological god.”

The Bible clearly teaches that the Earth sits on “strong foundations” using those very words - just perform an Internet search on the phrase “strong foundations”. Perhaps the Bible means that the whole flat square-circlish structure, along with its pillars, is suspended over nothing?

That your claims about prophesy are also false confirms the conjecture that “Every Christian is a Liar”.
There is no verifiable evidence that “Jesus”, (assuming there was an historical Jesus), fulfilled any “prophecies”. You might also want to perform an Internet search on “Failed Biblical Prophecies”.

And so on …

Makarios said...

The universe contains everything that BEGAN to exist. God is eternal.

VeridicusX said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
VeridicusX said...

"The universe contains everything that BEGAN to exist. God is eternal."

That's a false statement, isn't it? Is this what they call "Lying for Jesus"? Should I believe you or the dictionary?
WordNetWeb at Princeton

First: God is supposed to be omnipresent, but you claim that the universe [only] contains everything that BEGAN to exist. God therefore, does not exist within the universe and so cannot be omnipresent.

I think that you'll suddenly acquire an ability to read the dictionary and play some word games with the word "contains" so we'll move on.

Second: If "The universe contains everything that BEGAN to exist.", does it contain itself?

If we go with your definition we've disproved your god and if we go with the dictionary definition we've disproved your god.

Makarios said...

"Should I believe you or the dictionary?"

Actually you can believe both. From Webster's New Collegiate -

Universe - "A systematic whole held to arise by and persist through the direct intervention of Divine power."
==========

"but you claim that the universe [only] contains everything that BEGAN to exist."

No I didn't. The insertion of the word ONLY is yours.
===========

"God therefore, does not exist within the universe and so cannot be omnipresent."

God is most certainly present in the universe. He also existed prior to the singularity and was:
. The Cause of the singulary,
. The Cause of the insertion of the constants and qualities prior to Planck time and
. The Cause of space, time, matter and the laws of physics.

Because Creator God brought the universe into existence prior to the existence of the laws of physics, that is in and of itself a working definition of a miracle.

VeridicusX said...

OK, the Universe possibly contains your god and everything else? This complies with the first dictionary definition that I gave.

"Only" is the meaning that you gave, (and it is the only meaning because to exist outside the universe is to exist nowhere and at no time and to possess no energy or information). Liars frequently imply things and then say, "Ah, but that is not what I said".
I will give you the benefit of the doubt and think that you meant "God is within but not completely contained by the universe", (even though this is incoherent nonsense).

Dictionary Reference
If you follow the link you will see that "universe" means EVERYTHING. But for the purposes of this discussion, I will accept that you only want to use a limited meaning.


"God is most certainly present in the universe."

Just a reminder, to make unqualified, baseless assertions is known as lying. I and others will accept that you are not lying if you produce verifiable evidence to back up this assertion.


"[God is] The Cause of space, time, matter and the laws of physics."

You do realize that this phrase is incoherent? There is no "before time" so how can it be caused?
Spacetime is where things exist. Your statement means that this "god" of yours exists? existed? nowhere and at no time and is immaterial. This is the very definition of non-existent.

Truth is consistent with itself. The phrase is nonsense and is therefore false.


The question remains, if the universe contains everything that BEGAN to exist, does it contain itself?

Makarios said...

Because of clear scientific evidence, we know that:
. Anything that exists has an explanation of it’s existence, either in the necessity of its own nature (It can’t NOT exist, eg. Creator God), or in an external cause.

. If the universe has an explanation of its existence, that explanation is external to as well as transcendent to the universe.

That is because:
Existing outside of time, the Cause is infinite or Eternal,

Existing outside of matter (which is finite), the Cause is immaterial or Spiritual,

Existing as the Cause of time and energy, space, matter and the laws of physics, the Cause is immeasurably more powerful than the mathematically precise universe and its exquisitely
Finely Tuned constants and quantities.

The Cause cannot be “scientific” because neither matter nor the laws of physics (i.e., the laws that science has observed and identified), existed prior to the Singularity.

Therefore the Cause of the beginning of the universe is not scientific but Personal.

The transcendent Cause of the universe is therefore on the order of a Mind.

That Cause is omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent. That Cause, is what is normally described as God.

Does the universe contain itself? Who cares?

VeridicusX said...

"Because of clear scientific evidence, we know that:
. Anything that exists has an explanation of it’s existence, either in the necessity of its own nature (It can’t NOT exist, eg. Creator God), or in an external cause."

I'm trying to work out if you're dim-witted, deluded or deceitful.

Point me to this "clear scientific evidence" that "we know".
What is the explanation of "the necessity of its own nature" (and the explanation of that explanation if it exists)?
Reality exists, what is the explanation of existence?
Is "For no reason" an explanation?


". If the universe has an explanation of its existence, that explanation is external to as well as transcendent to the universe."

*If* the universe has an explanation of its existence. But I do remember pointing out that this transcendental, causal stuff is incoherent nonsense and therefore false.

"That is because:
Existing outside of time, the Cause is infinite or Eternal,
Existing outside of matter (which is finite), the Cause is immaterial or Spiritual,"

... and has a white beard, according to the Bible.

"Existing as the Cause of time and energy, space, matter and the laws of physics, the Cause is immeasurably more powerful than the mathematically precise universe and its exquisitely
Finely Tuned constants and quantities.
The Cause cannot be “scientific” because neither matter nor the laws of physics (i.e., the laws that science has observed and identified), existed prior to the Singularity.
Therefore the Cause of the beginning of the universe is not scientific but Personal.
The transcendent Cause of the universe is therefore on the order of a Mind."

I get is now! "Personal Mind" is magic! It doesn't have to exist anywhere or anywhen, it doesn't have to follow the rules of logic or have any energy or information, (information is energy). And even though existing outside of time means that an entity can do nothing, (because there's no time Boo Boo), "Personal Mind" can cause things to happen anyway - unscientifically.

"That Cause is omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent. That Cause, is what is normally described as God."

... and it has a throne in rainbows just slightly above the sky and is having lunch with the Invisible Pink Unicorn even as you read this - along with the potential infinity of other improbable, unnecessary and baseless conjectures.

"Does the universe contain itself? Who cares?"

The reason you're pretending not to care is because you're a bad liar.
It seems to me that you've been repeating things that you've heard from cretinists, (I think there's an "a" and an "o" in there as well).

If "The universe contains everything that BEGAN to exist.", then either it doesn't contain itself and the universe did not BEGIN to exist, making a creator god impossible, or the statement is false - which is to say, you were lying.
(If the assertion means that the universe does contain itself and everything that BEGAN to exist, the statement is incoherent and false).

Or perhaps you mean that the universe is self-contained and contains the action that caused itself to exist, because after all, that action BEGAN to exist and that action is therefore part of the universe - an elaborate way to say that the universe magically caused itself. God can't have caused it because god existed outside of time at that point, according to you.

Makarios said...

"I'm trying to work out if you're dim-witted, deluded or deceitful."

Are you trying to be nasty or is it just something you can't help?
=========

Point me to this "clear scientific evidence" that "we know".

Sure, because of observation, verification, and repeated testing with identical conclusions we know that anything that exists has an explanation of it’s existence, either in the necessity of its own nature or in an external cause.

If you can think of any exceptions to this you’re welcome to note them here and now.
============

What is the explanation of "the necessity of its own nature"

To know that something is true, or that it exists you do not have to understand how it is true or why it exists. To demand an explanation of everything we know to be true would bring science to a screeching halt. For example, let's say that humans landed on Mars and in their travels around the planet they found a huge stadium filled with machinery.

They don’t have to have an explanation of HOW that stuff got there to correctly conclude that some form of intelligence either brought it or built it.

Or closer to home. Archeologists find arrow heads, beads and crude farm instruments during one of their digs. They don’t have to have an explanation of how the owners of these tools arrived at the site to know that humans once lived there.
==========

“Is "For no reason" an explanation?”

It’s certainly an explanation, and perhaps it’s even an explanation that meets the low standards of atheists, but it not an explanation that is acceptable from a scientific perspective.
=========

If the universe has an explanation of its existence, that explanation is external to as well as transcendent to the universe. We don't have to understand the the explanation to know that one exists.
===========

*If* the universe has an explanation of its existence.

Not only does the universe EXIST,
We know that it BEGAN to exist and
We know that whatever begins to exist has an EXPLANATION of it’s existence either in the necessity of its own nature or from an external source.
===============

“But I do remember pointing out that this transcendental, causal stuff is incoherent nonsense and therefore false.”

Yes well, forgive me if I don’t actually give much credibility to your random thoughts.

So tell me what your explanation is.
That matter is eternal?
That matter created itself?
That there actually CAN be an infinite regress of cause?
==========

“If "The universe contains everything that BEGAN to exist.. . .”

Have you ever heard of the Borde-Guth-Vilinkin theorem? They’re quantum physicists who discovered / established that any model of an expanding universe, either in reality, such as ours or in theory must have a finite space / time boundary, a singularity, a Big Bang, a Creation event. I suggest that you google this theorem and spend some time trying to comprehend what it is saying.

VeridicusX said...

"Are you trying to be nasty or is it just something you can't help?"

I am trying to forcefully bring you to face up to the fact that asserting meritless magical nonsense as fact is unethical. This truth is something you seem to want to avoid. If you are offended by it I am not sorry.

If you make unqualified, baseless assertions that is deceit. If you believe those assertions in the face of contrary evidence, that is delusion. And if you are gullible and fail to relatively consistently rely on physical evidence and reasoned logic, that is dim-wittedness.


"To demand an explanation of everything we know to be true would bring science to a screeching halt."

It seems to me that this is the logical conclusion of your generalisation.

Your statement that "Anything that exists has an explanation of it’s existence" is false. This is proved by the phrase you used, "the necessity of its own nature". That "explanation" is effectively, "that's just the way it is", which is not an explanation at all.


"“Is "For no reason" an explanation?”

It’s certainly an explanation, and perhaps it’s even an explanation that meets the low standards of atheists, but it not an explanation that is acceptable from a scientific perspective."

You should be able to recognise the inherent contradiction in your statements.


"Point me to this "clear scientific evidence" that "we know".

Sure, because of observation, verification, and repeated testing with identical conclusions we know that anything that exists has an explanation of it’s existence, either in the necessity of its own nature or in an external cause.

If you can think of any exceptions to this you’re welcome to note them here and now."

You did not point me to "clear scientific evidence" so instead I will point you to "clear scientific evidences" which constitute some of the exceptions you've requested.

Look up "Spontaneous Symmetry Breaking", "Virtual Particles", "Quantum Fluctuations".


"Not only does the universe EXIST,
We know that it BEGAN to exist and
We know that whatever begins to exist has an EXPLANATION of it’s existence either in the necessity of its own nature or from an external source."

... therefore a Flying Spaghetti Monster, (with a white beard)?
We DO NOT know that whatever begins to exist has an EXPLANATION of it's existence. Repeating a baseless assertion does not make it so.


"Yes well, forgive me if I don’t actually give much credibility to your random thoughts."

It seems that where reasoned logic is concerned you regard it as "random thoughts".


"Have you ever heard of the Borde-Guth-Vilinkin theorem? They’re quantum physicists who discovered / established that any model of an expanding universe, either in reality, such as ours or in theory must have a finite space / time boundary, a singularity, a Big Bang, a Creation event. I suggest that you google this theorem and spend some time trying to comprehend what it is saying."

I don't remember disputing a finite spacetime boundary, a singularity, a Big Bang, a Big Bounce or any natural possibility. I have, however, disputed "a Creation event". It is *you* who have been presenting fable, conjecture and outright falsehoods as fact.
I, on the other hand, have been rebutting your lies - (you know, those unqualified, baseless assertions and logical contradictions).

If you can't understand that the information you've pointed me to plus your statements, contradict your beliefs that "the universe contains everything that began to exist" and that there was a "Creation event", then there's no help for this discussion.


"So tell me what your explanation is.
That matter is eternal?
That matter created itself?
That there actually CAN be an infinite regress of cause?"

I do not claim to know what the "explanation" is and you've shown that there is not necessarily an explanation, but I do know that the primitive choices you've presented would be low on the list.

It is *you* who claimed to know what the explanation is, but you've failed to produce any evidence or coherent reasoning.

Makarios said...

“then there's no help for this discussion.”

You're right. You are far too intelligent for me. There is no way that I could ever hope to refute any of your arguments.

So you may as well just go away.

However, for what it's worth, which is probably nothing, a quantum fluctuation is not an exception to

"Everything that exists has an explanation of it's existence, either in the necessity of its own being or in an external cause."

This statement is a well established and accepted premise in fields of both philosophy and science. If you choose to disagree with this premise you are going against some very heavy hitters.

And, for what it's worth, any particle that appears in a quantum fluctuation, for a trillionth of a second, returns to the energy field (which is not nothing) from which it came. It should be obvious to you that the appearance of this particle had a cause, and that cause was external to the particle itself.

So, I believe that now is the time for you to run along and impress someone else with . . . Never mind, just go away.

VeridicusX said...

"This statement is a well established and accepted premise in fields of both philosophy and science. If you choose to disagree with this premise you are going against some very heavy hitters."

Really!?! Oh My God!

"It should be obvious to you that the appearance of this particle had a cause, and that cause was external to the particle itself."

It is not obvious to me. And it is not obvious to modern physics - Quantum Mechanics. You may want to look up the reason for Einstein's famous, "God does not play dice".
Standard quantum theory is that some events are uncaused.

Joshua said...

Um, where does the Bible say that “What is visible is made from what is not visible” ? I'm not aware of any verse you are quoting there and a quick search doesn't turn anything up. Note furthermore, that it isn't at all obvious from that verse or most of your other verses what the heck the individual is talking about. There are similar verses in the Koran which can be similarly read as predicting things. The problem is that these predictions are all post facto. To use just one blatant example where you quote below from Isaiah about God and the circle of the Earth, this verse has been in the past used as an argument that the Earth was in fact flat. The verse is vague enough that it can be read either way so it isn't really helpful. If one wanted something that would not at all be knowable to ancient persona and was unambiguously so God could have just written something like 2^43112609 -1 is prime. Clear, unambiguous and no way at all anyone would guess this.

Makarios said...

Um, where does the Bible say that “What is visible is made from what is not visible” ?

Hebrews 11:3
=-======

“it isn't at all obvious from that verse or most of your other verses what the heck the individual is talking about.”

Ya, well, I didn’t give the context for them. For this one it’s, “By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.”

In my mind only the last half of the verse related to the topic of the post.
==========

“There are similar verses in the Koran which can be similarly read as predicting things.”

Really? Could you give me two or three examples. Thanks
==============

“The problem is that these predictions are all post facto.”

What predictions? What proof do you have of that?

The main method of denying or disproving the astounding achievement of Biblical prophecy is to try to “late date” anything called Biblical prophecy. What the critics say is that because the prophecies are so accurate, they must have been written after the events actually happened. When it comes to Old Testament Prophecy in general and the prophecy of Jesus specifically, these people run into somewhat of a problem. Here’s why.
All of the Old Testament Scripture was completed 450 years before Jesus the Christ was born. However even the most sceptical must admit the date of 250 B.C. since that is when the Old Testament was translated into Greek.
==============

“To use just one blatant example where you quote below from Isaiah about God and the circle of the Earth, this verse has been in the past used as an argument that the Earth was in fact flat.”

How could that verse be used? There are other verses, like “the four corners of the earth,” that would make much more sense.
===============

“Clear, unambiguous and no way at all anyone would guess this.”

Mm hm. Interesting isn’t it? I think Plato got it right when he said that God has presented just enough evidence for His existence so that those who are searching for Him will be able to find Him and just enough evidence so that those who want to reject Him won’t be able to find Him accidentally.

Jesus of course did the same. He explained to His disciples that that is why He only taught in parables. Those who had been called would understand and those who were not called would just be confused.

Joshua said...

Ok, looked up the verse in question. I don't understand how given the context you think it is talking about microscopic things at all. It doesn't for example talk about things being too small to see, just being unseen, and in that context given the first half of the verse it is pretty clearly talking about reality being created by the hand of God. The other verses you listed have similar problems.

As to the Koranic claims, I think I'll choose for starters a claim that is nearly identical to one you make about microscopic life. Sura 36:36 credits God with creating people "and from things unknown to them.". Sura 16 includes a verse saying "He creates other things you do not know."

Sura 27 has a verse which states "You will see the mountains and reckon them to be solid; but they go past like clouds-the handiwork of Allah Who gives to everything its solidity." which many Muslims have claimed is evidence that the writer knew that the Earth is rotating.

It isn't hard to give many such examples. And one can do this not just with the Koran but also with the Vedas or the texts from almost any other religion.

In all these cases, as with yours, they require a post-hoc interpretation of a vague statement or a more literal interpretation of a metaphor that would otherwise be simply seen as a metaphor.

Instead of concluding that these verses show what you want but only to you as a part of a deliberate act of God, maybe you should look up confirmation bias.

Makarios said...

"pretty clearly talking about reality being created by the hand of God."

I don't think so. If that was the case it would say, "what is seen was made BY what is unseen" rather than ". . . from what is unseen."
=========

Thanks for the Quran quotes. I read it about 30 years ago but nothing stayed with me, at least not this long.

So what are your thoughts on the prophecies about Jesus or Israel being written after the fact. Any further thoughts on that?

Joshua said...

Frankly, the end of that verse is strange enough that it isn't completely clear what it is trying to say. I don't read Greek, but I can read Latin and the Vulgate's translation "ut ex invisibilibus visibilia fierent" is more or less "that the seen was created from out of the unseen" which doesn't help much either. But suggesting that it is about microscopic entities is definitely a stretch.

Regarding prophecies that Jesus fulfilled, I wasn't planning on addressing that (and in my original post didn't do so because they aren't nearly as interesting). You are correct that none of the statements in the Old Testament were written after Jesus. Indeed, the fact that Jews share essentially the same texts in this regard shows that no substantial retroactive editing of those texts occurred post Jesus.

However, that isn't what really matters: First, many of the texts taken as prophecies such as much of Isaiah is meant as metaphor about the nation of Israel, not prophecy.

Second, even if one is going by Biblical prophecies then Jesus fails at a fundamental level: He doesn't succeed but dies. The entire notion of a "Second Coming" isn't in the texts to start with. So by direct measure he fails at the biggest issue there is.

Third, and arguably most seriously, there's no way to verify that the accounts of Jesus fulfilling the prophecies are at all accurate. It would take minimal effort for a writer to add claims that Jesus did such and such with no serious backing. So claims in the NT that Jesus met certain prophecies are at best unpersuasive.

Fourth, these prophecies, such as they were, were all well-known texts in the time of Jesus. Anyone claiming to be the messiah would have made extra effort to fulfill anything seen as a relevant prophecy.

Overall, claims of fulfilled Old Testament prophecies are not strong.

Makarios said...

So, do you just spew out words with no regard to the veracity of their claims? Does it matter not at all to you what you say? For example:

"Anyone claiming to be the messiah would have made extra effort to fulfill anything seen as a relevant prophecy."

Do you think just any old Joe would have control over the
1. Place of birth
2. Time of birth
3. Manner of birth
4. Betrayal by a friend
5. Manner of death
6. People’s reaction
7. Piercing, and
8. Burial

Do you think any old Joe would try to manipulate their crucifixion just to pretend to be the Messiah? Do you actually think he would be able to do that?

Professor Peter Stoner, Editor of ‘Science Digest’ has calculated that the odds of the 20 prophecies of what happened to Jesus on the last day of His life here on earth, to be 10 ^ -157, against them coming true in one man, accidentally.

Do those numbers mean anything at all to you? Scientists agree that 10 ^ -50 is the same as zero - impossible.

It is estimated that there are "only" 10 ^ 80 subatomic particles in the WHOLE UNIVERSE, yet the odds of these prophecies coming true is 10 ^ 157.

Anything? Anything at all happening for you?

This should give everyone pause for thought. For sceptics? Nothing.

As you have repeatedly stated, it's easy to misconstrue what this or that verse may be saying.
However, one thing is clear. If Jesus wasn't the Messiah, then nobody is going to be.

I'm not writing this for you because nothing will change your mind. However if anyone with an open mind is reading. Several things had to happen in the life of the the Messiah. And they had to happen prior to AD 70.
1) There had to be a divine visitation to the Temple. Jesus did that.

2) The glory of the second Temple had to be greater than the first temple because of the divine visit. Jesus did that.

3) There had to be a divine atonment made for our sin. Jesus did that.

4) This all had to happen before the temple was destroyed in AD 70.

Jesus and only Jesus provided for that to happen on a timely manner.
Either Messiah came two thousand years ago or He isn't coming at all.

The Talmud asks whether the Messiah will come "with the clouds of heaven," as written in Daniel 7:13, or "gentle and riding on a donkey," as in Zechariah 9:9. They believed that it would be one or the other depending upon the worthiness of Israel. He did come meek and lowely, riding on a donkey, just a prophesied. Israel rejected Jesus and was found unworthy. Jesus will come on the clouds just as prophesied because Israel will recognise Him as Messiah just as prophesied. It's both/and. They're both true of the same person.

Jesus specifically told the people at His trial that He would return in victory and glory coming on the clouds, just as prophesied. We can know that He will fulfill that prophecy because He and He alone fulfilled the first prophecy.

What other Jewish figure has brought salvation to the gentiles, as prophecied?

What other Jewish figure has been seen to suffer terribly for our sins as a righteous substitute as prophisied?

What other Jewish figure has demonstrated power over death that has caused people from around the world to worship the God of the Jews, exactly as prophesied?

Is there any other candidate?

You say, "So claims in the NT that Jesus met certain prophecies are at best unpersuasive."

Only to those who refuse to be persuaded.

Joshua said...

Makarios, your comment focuses on one of three points I brought up and ignores the other two.

Let me state point 3 again:
There's no way to verify that the accounts of Jesus fulfilling the prophecies are at all accurate. It would take minimal effort for a writer to add claims that Jesus did such and such with no serious backing. Followers would be obviously inclined to make claims that someone fulfilled various prophecies. We don't have any independent confirmation.

Makarios said...

One person has said,
"There's no way to verify that the accounts of Jesus fulfilling the prophecies are at all accurate."

Another person has said,
"The Holocaust is a verifiable, documented, substantiated fact."

Many people have said,
"The Holocaust is nothing but political bullshit. It never happened and there is nothing to prove that it did."


What would you consider as evidence that WOULD give you beyond a resonable doubt in the historical details of Jesus' life?

Since the opinions of the world's most notible scholars don't rate, would anything? Or are you so narrow minded that you must cast aside any and all facts that don't uphold your world view?

Joshua said...

I'm a bit confused by your bringing up the Holocaust. The evidence for the Holocaust is orders of magnitudes larger than even the evidence for the existence of Jesus as a historical figure (to avoid misunderstanding I should probably make clear that I think it is more likely than not that he existed). In the case of the Holocaust we have literally thousands of distinct eye witnesses all with their own corroborating testimony. We have documents and archaeological locations. That's not at all similar to a situation where we have a handful of documents of unknown provenance which aren't even necessarily contemporaneous.

To your other question: it wouldn't surprise me at all if the broad outlines of his life were correct. Place of birth and form of death obviously are consistent between all four gospels. But much beyond that I'd like for starters to see actual contemporaneous records.

(Incidentally many of the "prophecies" you mention aren't prophecies at all. For example you claim that "There had to be a divine visitation to the Temple." This is retroactive Christian theology and nothing more. I can't comment on your claim that "The glory of the second Temple had to be greater than the first temple because of the divine visit." because I don't even understand what the claim means.
Your third comment that "There had to be a divine atonment made for our sin." Absolutely not. This is Christian theology pure and simple. Jews never made any claim that the Messiah had any part in divine atonement in the sense that Christianity means it. Finally, regarding your claim that this atonement had to happen during the the existence of the Temple, why?

Makarios said...

"I'd like for starters to see actual contemporaneous records."

It wouldn't make any difference. Just like what you consider to be good evidence for the Holocaust doesn't make any difference to those who want to deny that it ever happened. Evidence is only good for those who maintain an open mind and yours is a long, long way from open.